The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, I have the honour to inform the Senate that a message has been received from the House of Commons which reads as follows:

Thursday, March 30, 2023

EXTRACT, —

That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that, in relation to Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, the House:

agrees with amendments 1(a)(ii), 1(b), 2(a), 2(b), 2(c), 2(d)(i), 2(e), 4, 5, 7(b)(i), 8, 9(a), 10 and 12 made by the Senate;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 1(a)(i) because the amendment does not refer to broadcasting undertakings that comprise components of the broadcasting system which may cause interpretative issues in the application of the Act;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 2(d)(ii) because the amendment seeks to legislate matters in the broadcasting system that are beyond the policy intent of the bill, the purpose of which is to include online undertakings, undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet, in the broadcasting system;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 3 because this would affect the Governor in Council’s ability to publicly consult on, and issue, a policy direction to the CRTC to appropriately scope the regulation of social media services with respect to their distribution of commercial programs, as well as prevent the broadcasting system from adapting to technological changes over time;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 6 because it could limit the CRTC’s ability to impose conditions respecting the proportion of programs to be broadcast that are devoted to specific genres both for online undertakings and traditional broadcasters, thus reducing the diversity of programming;

proposes that amendment 7(a) be amended to read as follows:

“(a) On page 18, replace lines 29 to 34 with the following:

“(a) whether Canadians, including independent producers, have a right or interest in relation to a program, including copyright, that allows them to control and benefit in a significant and equitable manner from the exploitation of the program;””;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 7(b)(ii) because the principle that Canadian programs are first and foremost content made by Canadians is, and has been, at the centre of the definition of Canadian programs for decades, and this amendment would remove the ability for the CRTC to ensure that that remains the case;

proposes that amendment 9(b) be amended by deleting subsection 18(2.1) because the obligation to hold a public hearing both before and after decisions are taken by the CRTC will entail unnecessary delays in the administration of the Act;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 11 because the amendment seeks to legislate matters in the broadcasting system that are beyond the policy intent of the bill, the purpose of which is to include online undertakings, undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet, in the broadcasting system, and because further study is required on how best to position our national public broadcaster to meet the needs and expectations of Canadians.

ATTEST

Eric Janse

Acting Clerk of the House of Commons

Honourable senators, when shall this message be taken into consideration?

(On motion of Senator Gold, message placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.)

[English]

The Senate proceeded to consideration of the message from the House of Commons concerning Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts:

Thursday, March 30, 2023

EXTRACT, —

That a message be sent to the Senate to acquaint Their Honours that, in relation to Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other Acts, the House:

agrees with amendments 1(a)(ii), 1(b), 2(a), 2(b), 2(c), 2(d)(i), 2(e), 4, 5, 7(b)(i), 8, 9(a), 10 and 12 made by the Senate;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 1(a)(i) because the amendment does not refer to broadcasting undertakings that comprise components of the broadcasting system which may cause interpretative issues in the application of the Act;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 2(d)(ii) because the amendment seeks to legislate matters in the broadcasting system that are beyond the policy intent of the bill, the purpose of which is to include online undertakings, undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet, in the broadcasting system;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 3 because this would affect the Governor in Council’s ability to publicly consult on, and issue, a policy direction to the CRTC to appropriately scope the regulation of social media services with respect to their distribution of commercial programs, as well as prevent the broadcasting system from adapting to technological changes over time;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 6 because it could limit the CRTC’s ability to impose conditions respecting the proportion of programs to be broadcast that are devoted to specific genres both for online undertakings and traditional broadcasters, thus reducing the diversity of programming;

proposes that amendment 7(a) be amended to read as follows:

“(a) On page 18, replace lines 29 to 34 with the following:

“(a) whether Canadians, including independent producers, have a right or interest in relation to a program, including copyright, that allows them to control and benefit in a significant and equitable manner from the exploitation of the program;””;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 7(b)(ii) because the principle that Canadian programs are first and foremost content made by Canadians is, and has been, at the centre of the definition of Canadian programs for decades, and this amendment would remove the ability for the CRTC to ensure that that remains the case;

proposes that amendment 9(b) be amended by deleting subsection 18(2.1) because the obligation to hold a public hearing both before and after decisions are taken by the CRTC will entail unnecessary delays in the administration of the Act;

respectfully disagrees with amendment 11 because the amendment seeks to legislate matters in the broadcasting system that are beyond the policy intent of the bill, the purpose of which is to include online undertakings, undertakings for the transmission or retransmission of programs over the Internet, in the broadcasting system, and because further study is required on how best to position our national public broadcaster to meet the needs and expectations of Canadians.

Senator Gold: Of course.

Senator Wallin: I have a comment in response to that. I want to put on the record what Attorney General David Lametti said when he spoke about Bill C-10, and when asked specifically about federal regulation of legal internet content. He said that rights and freedoms can be limited. In particular, he said:

. . . when Parliament legislates, it may have an effect on charter rights and freedoms. This may include limiting people’s enjoyment or exercise . . . . This is entirely legitimate. The rights and freedoms guaranteed in the charter are not absolute . . . .

Hon. Hassan Yussuff moved second reading of Bill C-224, An Act to establish a national framework for the prevention and treatment of cancers linked to firefighting.

He said: Honourable senators, I will not be speaking today; my good friend Senator Wells, the critic of the bill, will be speaking.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Are honourable senators ready for the question?

Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. The Prime Minister made it clear on several occasions — and I will repeat it again — that his connections with the foundation ceased when he became the Leader of the Liberal Party, and he has had no connections with the foundation ever since. The foundation is an independent organization, and, as with every organization, we expect it to act in good faith. Any questions about their activities should clearly be directed to the foundation and neither to the Prime Minister nor to me, frankly.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): At least we agree that the CBC is the propaganda arm of the government. Thank you for clarifying that. I hope the CBC takes note.

Leader, I don’t believe the Prime Minister has ever seen a credit card bill in his life. He certainly doesn’t know how high interest rates can be. I’m sure he didn’t use his credit card when he was in Jamaica. If he did, he would not have suggested that Canadians rack up more credit card debt, as he did in a recent town hall in Moncton. As the prime minister who has added more debt than any other prime minister, Prime Minister Trudeau is in no position to tell Canadians how to manage their daily finances responsibly. He has never had to worry about his own personal finances, and that thinking applies to how he runs our country.

Leader, according to last month’s budget, the Trudeau government has no path to balance, ever. At least credit card companies tell consumers how long it will take for us to pay off our debt. Why won’t the Prime Minister do the same?

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, we have less than a minute before six o’clock, and I feel uncomfortable calling upon a senator to begin a speech that I will have to interrupt in one minute.

Therefore, with leave of the Senate and pursuant to the rule 3-3(1), is it agreed that we not see the clock, honourable senators? I hear a “no,” which means we will suspend until 8 p.m. So ordered.

(The sitting of the Senate was suspended.)

(The sitting of the Senate was resumed.)

(2000)

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Gold, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator LaBoucane-Benson:

That the following Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada:

To Her Excellency the Right Honourable Mary May Simon, Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.

MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY:

We, Her Majesty’s most loyal and dutiful subjects, the Senate of Canada in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious Speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.

Senator Gold: I would have to reflect upon that, Senator Tannas.

As I said, I accept the Senate’s ability to move amendments to motions. I will choose not to pronounce upon whether that would be something that I would support or oppose in the event that that comes to pass.

Senator LaBoucane-Benson: Thank you for your question.

I’m not sure if they have rejected it because it’s prejudicial. I know that Natan Obed has concerns, absolutely. I look forward to hearing from him in committee and that robust discussion we’re going to have about the bill and his concerns. I think I will have more to say about that after committee study.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, in your speech today on Bill C-11, you told us about user-generated content that the government made a commitment. Well, we’ve heard this “just trust us” many times before from the Trudeau government, and the number of broken promises by this government is substantial.

These include: two years of deficits at just $10 billion per year before returning to balance, that the 2015 election would be the last one under the first-past-the-post system — it goes on and on — and most recently Minister of Finance Chrystia Freeland promised that the federal ratio of debt to GDP would not increase, and she called that “a line we will not cross.” Yet the Parliamentary Budget Officer has now stated that is yet another Trudeau government broken promise.

Senator Gold, when you state that your government will not put this user-generated content assurance into the actual law but instead you tell us — on this most contentious Bill C-11 — to “just trust us,” after all of the broken promises over the last eight years from this Trudeau government, why should Canadians believe that promise?

Senator Gold: You having been here for fifteen years, and I for six and a half years, we know that following Royal Assent there is a regulatory process. Following Royal Assent, there will be a process around the policy direction. I outlined that process to you and I will remind you it involves public consultation, public input, both at the front end and at the back end when the CRTC receives the public consultation. I will also remind colleagues — and as chair of the committee that studied the bill at length, Senator Housakos, you will also know — that the bill provides for reports to Parliament and parliamentary oversight and was improved in that regard by Senator Quinn’s amendment.

We have many tools in our arsenal, but the arsenal that we carry with us is a sense of what our role and responsibility are here in the Senate. Ninety-nine per cent of this bill was approved by this place and the other place. Of the 26 amendments, 20 were approved by three parties in the other place. This bill has been studied in this place and the other place extensively. The time has come now to recognize this is an important and good bill. The government has made firm, solid public commitments, and the text of the law is also clear with regard to what it applies to and what it does not apply to. If that is not enough for those in this chamber who in good faith want to see this bill succeed and pass, then I have run out of things to say.

If you want to kill the bill, there are lots of ways to do it. We have seen it in the past. We know how to do that. We can delay it. We can hope for another election. We can get it buried, and it will die on the Order Paper. But for those of us who believe that this is a good bill, a bill that has been improved by our amendments, and who believe that the elected members of the House of Commons have done their responsible duty and taken us seriously and have approved 20 out of 26 amendments, the time now is to give it Royal Assent.

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Would Senator Pate agree to take another question?

Some Hon. Senators: Yes.

Hon. Leo Housakos: Honourable senators, before I move the adoption of the report, it has come to my attention that there was a technical problem during the preparation of the report, which resulted in the report as presented not accurately reflecting the decisions taken by the committee.

I have been informed that the technical issue has been resolved and that internal quality controls are being reviewed to minimize the risk of similar errors occurring again and to ensure that the Senate has before it a document that accurately reflects the committee’s decision.

Honourable senators, with leave of the Senate, I move:

That the Fourth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications be amended in amendment no. 1 by deleting subsection (1.12) and by renumbering subsection (1.13) as subsection (1.12).

Hon. Pamela Wallin: For the record, Senator Gold, the constitutional design does allow for the Senate to challenge the House of Commons and not just once. You cited the cases yourself. I would also add that declaring “mission accomplished” is also a bit of a risky move when we heard from dozens and dozens of witnesses speaking on behalf of literally thousands of content creators about their concerns. We also heard from former CRTC chairs, from federal judges that this bill would have and could have unintended consequences on a free and open internet.

If I could focus again on what my colleagues have said, if you believe — yes, we have heard the minister say it repeatedly and we’ve heard you say it repeatedly — this bill does not apply to user-generated digital content, why would you not put it in the law itself for clarity? This just continues to raise questions and doubts and it’s just what we do with legislation here. There are, as you know, many questions in the public about the intent of this bill. You have gone so far as to say that you want this to apply to content and generators, other forms of media that have not even been imagined yet into the future. You’re asking us to give you a blank cheque on that. Could you just start and answer the question of why you have not put this in the bill in black and white, in clear language, which is what thousands of people asked you to do?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. With respect to our constitutional role, no one is denying what the Constitution Act, 1867 says. But in my speech — and I’m sure you were listening — the Supreme Court made it clear that because of the understanding from 1867 onward of our complementary role, it was not necessary to specify the circumstances under which senators would exercise restraint as a matter of principle, a self-imposed principle of restraint, because it came with the understanding, which all of us share and should share, of what our role here in this chamber is vis-à-vis the role of other institutions in our government, including the elected officials.

It is a question of what the appropriate and responsible thing for the Senate to do is. This is not a case where, in my humble opinion, the message is about the disagreement with 6 of the 26 amendments — and again, colleagues, the motion focuses on and our practice in the Senate focuses at the message stage on talking only about the message. There are Speaker’s rulings on these points.

Again, I am not invoking procedural arguments to stifle this discussion. I’m just trying to appeal to your experience as a legislator and to those of us with perhaps less experience to remind us what this debate is about and what it’s not about.

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