Senator Gold: Thank you for your many questions.

This is an important issue, and it is one with which the government has been seized and has taken many steps to address.

With regard to your specific questions, the investigations that are and might be under way by the RCMP and others are matters upon which I cannot comment and which will bear fruit when those investigations are completed.

Senator Gold: Unfortunately, I am not.

Honourable senators can be assured that the process is a serious and ongoing one. It is being treated with dispatch, and I look forward to the announcement at the time that it is made.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: I don’t have that information. I’ll try to find it and get back to you later with an answer. The Green family have been friends with the Trudeau family for a very long time, going back to the late Pierre Elliott Trudeau. I’ll look into it further with the government.

[English]

Senator Gold: Well, Jewish people have a tradition of answering a question with a question. You will properly consider this is out of order, but let me ask you a question. As a member of the Senate for 15 years and as a former Speaker, surely you are aware that the question at this stage of the process has to refer to amendments that were either accepted or rejected and not to the bill as a whole.

Senator Gold: Of course.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. The Prime Minister made it clear on several occasions — and I will repeat it again — that his connections with the foundation ceased when he became the Leader of the Liberal Party, and he has had no connections with the foundation ever since. The foundation is an independent organization, and, as with every organization, we expect it to act in good faith. Any questions about their activities should clearly be directed to the foundation and neither to the Prime Minister nor to me, frankly.

Senator Gold: I would have to reflect upon that, Senator Tannas.

As I said, I accept the Senate’s ability to move amendments to motions. I will choose not to pronounce upon whether that would be something that I would support or oppose in the event that that comes to pass.

Senator Gold: You having been here for fifteen years, and I for six and a half years, we know that following Royal Assent there is a regulatory process. Following Royal Assent, there will be a process around the policy direction. I outlined that process to you and I will remind you it involves public consultation, public input, both at the front end and at the back end when the CRTC receives the public consultation. I will also remind colleagues — and as chair of the committee that studied the bill at length, Senator Housakos, you will also know — that the bill provides for reports to Parliament and parliamentary oversight and was improved in that regard by Senator Quinn’s amendment.

We have many tools in our arsenal, but the arsenal that we carry with us is a sense of what our role and responsibility are here in the Senate. Ninety-nine per cent of this bill was approved by this place and the other place. Of the 26 amendments, 20 were approved by three parties in the other place. This bill has been studied in this place and the other place extensively. The time has come now to recognize this is an important and good bill. The government has made firm, solid public commitments, and the text of the law is also clear with regard to what it applies to and what it does not apply to. If that is not enough for those in this chamber who in good faith want to see this bill succeed and pass, then I have run out of things to say.

If you want to kill the bill, there are lots of ways to do it. We have seen it in the past. We know how to do that. We can delay it. We can hope for another election. We can get it buried, and it will die on the Order Paper. But for those of us who believe that this is a good bill, a bill that has been improved by our amendments, and who believe that the elected members of the House of Commons have done their responsible duty and taken us seriously and have approved 20 out of 26 amendments, the time now is to give it Royal Assent.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. With respect to our constitutional role, no one is denying what the Constitution Act, 1867 says. But in my speech — and I’m sure you were listening — the Supreme Court made it clear that because of the understanding from 1867 onward of our complementary role, it was not necessary to specify the circumstances under which senators would exercise restraint as a matter of principle, a self-imposed principle of restraint, because it came with the understanding, which all of us share and should share, of what our role here in this chamber is vis-à-vis the role of other institutions in our government, including the elected officials.

It is a question of what the appropriate and responsible thing for the Senate to do is. This is not a case where, in my humble opinion, the message is about the disagreement with 6 of the 26 amendments — and again, colleagues, the motion focuses on and our practice in the Senate focuses at the message stage on talking only about the message. There are Speaker’s rulings on these points.

Again, I am not invoking procedural arguments to stifle this discussion. I’m just trying to appeal to your experience as a legislator and to those of us with perhaps less experience to remind us what this debate is about and what it’s not about.

(1650)

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): First of all, I’m quite surprised that you would quote from an article from the CBC, which your leader claims is the Trudeau government’s propaganda arm. However, one of the things I like about being a senator is that I’m always learning new things. It’s to your credit, colleague, that you have quoted this propaganda arm.

Let’s be serious. The Prime Minister has the right to take a vacation with his family, and he also needs security to protect them. This applies to any prime minister, regardless of the party he or she represents.

The need to use a government aircraft is a long-standing practice for prime ministers in order to ensure their safety.

Finally, I’m pleased to follow your lead and also quote the CBC. A former colleague of Prime Minister Harper’s, Dimitri Soudas, once said that the Prime Minister is a father, he has a family, and it’s okay to take a vacation with his family.

Senator Gold: As you know, honourable senators, in 2017, the government published its strategy to address gender-based violence. It’s outlined in a document that’s entitled, It’s Time: Canada’s Strategy to Prevent and Address Gender-Based Violence.

This strategy builds on several federal initiatives, coordinating existing programs. It lays the foundation for greater action to combat gender-based violence, including initiatives to support survivors and their families, and to promote a responsive legal and justice system.

There are other ways that the government is also taking action, notably through the introduction of Bill C-21 which proposes to implement Canada’s most significant action against gun violence in at least a generation and which will — as we know, because of the impact that gun violence has on women and the degree to which firearms, tragically, are used in cases of violence against women — benefit women.

I do not know the answer to your specific question about the status of that recommendation. I’ll certainly make inquiries and report back.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question. As I stated in my speech, significant improvements were made to the bill by the Senate which were accepted by the government: These include strengthening the protection of privacy, as well as strengthening the presence and role, of Black Canadians, racialized Canadians and Indigenous voices; making it clear that innovation is an important objective of the regulatory framework and of our Canadian Broadcasting Act; ensuring that audiences figure into the calculations and ensuring the diversity of audiences; and so on and so forth. These were improvements to a bill that was already a good bill.

The bill came to us with massive support in the cultural sectors — supported by large numbers of stakeholders, and supported by three political parties who ran on its modernization as part of their electoral platforms.

This is a good bill; we agreed to and the House agrees to 99% of the bill. We’re talking about a handful of clauses where there is disagreement. I think that’s important for senators to understand at this message stage — when we have received a message from a minority Parliament, supported by a majority of members of the House of Commons who have carefully and responsibly studied our amendments. They’ve read the transcripts and listened to the debates. They have come to different policy choices than the ones the Senate preferred. That is not a reason to ignore the benefits that this bill will bring to Canadians, and the importance of passing it and having it receive Royal Assent as soon as possible.

Senator Gold: The Prime Minister is not vacillating. Although you have many talents, Senator Housakos, you’re hardly a mind reader, so you don’t actually know and should not presume to know what goes on in other people’s minds.

The government is taking this seriously. Investigations are under way. Institutions that are in place, such as the Committee of Parliamentarians and others, have looked and are continuing to look at the issue, as is the Special Rapporteur. Canadians should be secure in the notion that this government is taking their and our interests to heart.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. This past budget, as I’ve stated in this chamber, is designed to provide a road map for the future for Canadians while helping Canadians get through these difficult times. Indeed, despite the obsession of some with debt as the only measure of a country’s economic strength, viability and prospects, the facts remain, apart from the rhetoric, that Canada is well positioned — indeed, positioned better than G7 countries going forward — in terms of having the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio in the G7 and triple-A credit ratings. It is a testament to the practical, real-world, responsible management of this government.

Senator Gold: I understand because I attended the meetings as well. First, the bill is clear. It doesn’t apply to digital creators. This bill targets the platforms, not those who create the content.

Second, the minister repeated this several times very recently during a televised public program.

Third, the text makes it clear that this doesn’t apply. The fact that people create something and put it online doesn’t make them broadcasters. Far from it. The definitions are very clear.

Finally, as I mentioned in my speech and in the motion itself, the government has committed to spelling out in the policy direction that this won’t apply. I understand the fears, but they are not based on the text of the bill or the government’s position.

It is a clear and public commitment. If we approve the motion, the will of the Senate will be to ensure that the government is held to the commitments it made.

[English]

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. My answer is twofold. First, if my memory serves me well, the Prime Minister says that he is open to discussing a bilateral agreement with his counterpart, the Government of Quebec, given that Quebec has a program that doesn’t necessarily exist anywhere else.

We will closely monitor that process and how the national program will be received in Quebec, and the amounts paid out.

That said, I must emphasize the importance of this dental program for thousands upon thousands of Canadian families, young people and not-so-young people, who don’t have access to dental care and who don’t have the means to obtain dental care, which is vital to physical and mental health. This is an important program for Canadians, and the Canadian government is proud to move forward with this program.

[English]

Senator Gold: You having been here for 15 years and I for 6 and a half years, we know that following Royal Assent there is a regulatory process. Following Royal Assent, there will be a process around the policy direction. I outlined that process to you and I will remind you it involves public consultation, public input, both at the front end and at the back end when the CRTC receives the public consultation. I will also remind colleagues — and as chair of the committee that studied the bill at length, Senator Housakos, you will also know — that the bill provides for reports to Parliament and parliamentary oversight and was improved in that regard by Senator Quinn’s amendment.

We have many tools in our arsenal, but the arsenal that we carry with us is a sense of what our role and responsibility are here in the Senate. Ninety-nine per cent of this bill was approved by this place and the other place. Of the 26 amendments, 20 were approved by three parties in the other place. This bill has been studied in this place and the other place extensively. The time has come now to recognize this is an important and good bill. The government has made firm, solid public commitments, and the text of the law is also clear with regard to what it applies to and what it does not apply to. If that is not enough for those in this chamber who in good faith want to see this bill succeed and pass, then I have run out of things to say.

If you want to kill the bill, there are lots of ways to do it. We have seen it in the past. We know how to do that. We can delay it. We can hope for another election. We can get it buried, and it will die on the Order Paper. But for those of us who believe that this is a good bill, a bill that has been improved by our amendments, and who believe that the elected members of the House of Commons have done their responsible duty and taken us seriously and have approved 20 out of 26 amendments, the time now is to give it Royal Assent.

Senator Gold: Senator Wallin, I appreciate your question very much. I answered it as best I could in the speech. I’m not going to reread it. The amendment, according to the government and according to the majority of the members of the House of Commons, did not achieve its objectives and poses a risk of undermining the central objectives of the act.

This was much debated in the committee and debated in the Senate. The Senate passed the amendment. The House respectfully disagrees. I’ve tried to provide the reasons why the House disagrees.

I’ve also tried to provide reasons which I know you will take seriously. Whether you agree with me or not, that’s your prerogative. Notwithstanding this disagreement, notwithstanding your disappointment or the fact that you do not necessarily find my answers compelling, we will agree to disagree and to pass this important bill for the benefit of the Canadian cultural community and Canadians in general.

Senator Gold: Thank you, Senator Wallin. We know this. The Charter itself, in section 1, provides that rights and freedoms that are set out, and otherwise given an expansive interpretation at first blush, are subject to “such reasonable limits . . . as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” For the Attorney General to remind senators and legislators, all of whom have an obligation to understand and apply the Charter in our own work, is simply — if I can paraphrase the late, great Alan Borovoy, the former general counsel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and a mentor and friend to me — “a penetrating glimpse into the obvious.”

Yes, rights are not absolute. They’re balanced against other rights, and they’re subject to reasonable limits. Our statute books are full of examples of this kind.

Senator Gold: This was language that our office here in the Senate developed. You will know now for the last three years that when I am asked questions in Question Period, I answer on behalf of the government. It’s not my role to answer in my personal capacity. You can fairly assume that the language that we developed here represents a position that is acceptable to the government. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have put it in a motion.

As the Senate, we have the power to amend motions, to vote for them or reject them. I have no comment on your question. There have been no — and even if there were, it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to share this.

I am saying that I believe that this motion, the heart of which is to propose that we accept the message from the House — the addition that we included was to give the Senate the ability to be on record in this motion for the motion to be read in the House of Commons so that the members of the House understand what the position of the Senate is and that we take note.

We think that this will strengthen the assurances and, back to Senator Quinn’s point, we hope that it will provide some additional assurances to those who are still skeptical of governments. That is a feature of our modern politics.

It will also figure into interpretations. As one of our former colleagues reminded us regularly, courts and others take legislative history, and especially Senate pronouncements, into account when they are interpreting legislation. I think this adds one more element into the point that I have been trying to make that the government is seriously not involved and has no intention of scoping in user-generated content.