Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, today we have with us for Question Period the Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P, Minister of Public Services and Procurement. On behalf of all senators, I welcome the minister.

Honourable senators, let me remind you that during Question Period with a minister the initial question is limited to 60 seconds, and the initial answer to 90 seconds, followed by one supplementary question of at most 45 seconds and an answer of 45 seconds. The reading clerk will stand 10 seconds before these times expire. Pursuant to the order adopted by the Senate, senators do not need to stand. Question Period will last 64 minutes.

[English]

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Madam Chair, I would like to begin by congratulating you on your new role as Speaker of the Senate, as a Franco-Manitoban. We are proud that you are the Speaker of the Senate, and we look forward to collaborating with you over the coming months to ensure the Senate’s full cooperation and ability to work in service of Canadians.

[English]

Regarding the question that you asked, let me expand the scope a bit. Let us remember the importance of having fought so hard for the health and safety of Canadians during a time in which we were facing the largest public health emergency of over a century, as well as the biggest economic crisis since the 1930s. We had to invest significant resources in order to, in part, make sure that Canadians and other people who needed to come into Canada for essential reasons — in many cases, to deliver food, medicine and the types of goods that Canadians depended on — could travel safely and conveniently through the border. We did that mindful of the fact that tens of thousands of lives had been saved because of the efforts of the Canadian government — and, more importantly, because of the efforts and the commitment of Canadians.

Hon. Patti LaBoucane-Benson (Legislative Deputy to the Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, when the Senate next adjourns after the adoption of this motion, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, October 24, 2023, at 2 p.m.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, for the remainder of the current session and notwithstanding any provision of the Rules, when the Senate sits on a Thursday, it stand adjourned at the later of 6 p.m. or the end of Government Business, as if that time were, for all purposes, the ordinary time of adjournment provided for in rule 3-4.

[English]

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister Duclos, the ArriveCAN app has been a fiasco from the start, and the more we learn about it, the worse it gets. Your government used ArriveCAN to divide and punish Canadians needlessly. It caused chaos at the borders. The cost to taxpayers spiralled from $80,000 to at least $54 million, minister. The RCMP is now investigating the shady contracts behind ArriveCAN. The Trudeau government hid this fact from the Auditor General and from all Canadians. The only reason we know about the police involvement is because of a whistle-blower to The Globe and Mail.

Why was the RCMP investigation hidden, minister? What is the total amount that this app has cost Canadians? How much, minister?

[Translation]

Hon. Leo Housakos (Acting Deputy Leader of the Opposition): Welcome, minister. My question is also on “ArriveScam.” It’s the same one I asked your colleague Senator Gold last week, but I’m hoping to get a somewhat more relevant answer from you. “ArriveScam” saw Canadians unlawfully detained and unconstitutionally fined as much as $8,500, then threatened with more fines — as much as $750,000 — if caught breaking quarantine. It was bad enough when we thought these fines were paying for your government’s complete failure in awarding this outrageous $54-million-plus contract, but, minister, what assurances can you give me that Canadians weren’t being unlawfully detained and forced to pay these outrageous fines so that friends of Liberal insiders could line their pockets? Will your government do the right thing, minister, and please cancel the outstanding fines associated with this fraudulent app that many thousands of Canadians are saddled with?

I’m not going to insist on that because these are figures that Canadians understand well. When we speak about failures, I think we have to be honest and modest at the same time. Honest about the tremendous challenges that Canadians face and modest in the sense that, yes, the efforts of the Canadian government made a big difference; but more importantly, it was the faith, support and hard work of all Canadians that made the biggest difference in these terrible times.

Hon. Éric Forest: Welcome to the Senate, minister. In April 2023, the injustice done to workers in the Quebec City area was redressed when the government announced that Davie would be added to the National Shipbuilding Strategy.

Of the $840 million announced to modernize the Davie shipyard, $519.2 million came from the Government of Quebec and $320 million came directly from Davie itself. Ottawa did not contribute a single penny. A spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada was quoted in Le Journal de Montréal as saying:

 . . . all of the Government of Canada’s strategic partners in the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) must self-finance the infrastructure investments required to establish the capacity to build the ships included in their work package.

However, on August 9, the government announced that it would be giving Irving Shipbuilding Inc. $463 million to expand and modify its shipyard.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you very much. This gives me the opportunity to address a very important issue that many Canadians are concerned about. We’re in the midst of a housing crisis, similar to ones we’ve seen in other periods of Canadian history, including when veterans returned after the Second World War and following the baby boom in the early 1960s. We need to do everything we can to address it, and that includes, as you mentioned, making federal land or buildings available to Canadians, municipalities and non-profit organizations.

One way to do this is through the Federal Lands Initiative, which represents roughly $200 million from 2017 to 2026. So far, about half of that amount has already been committed for a total of 3,950 units that are completed, soon to be completed or under construction. About half of those units are affordable housing that will go to families, seniors or individuals in need of safe, affordable housing.

The Hon. the Speaker: Thank you, minister.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: The fact that this question comes from you is very significant, since you, along with many others, worked on getting Davie added to the National Shipbuilding Strategy. Many people know that and are grateful to you.

That being said, over the next few years, a major national maritime hub will be established in the Quebec City area. This hub will have a considerable impact from both a technological and a purely industrial standpoint. It will change the lives of tens of thousands of workers and give contracts to about 1,300 service providers. We know that similar shipbuilders, such as Irving and Seaspan, faced some issues in the early 2010s. Every one of them, including Davie, has had to pay for their technology and production upgrades themselves. That’s what happened in the other provinces, with support from the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and British Columbia. As you pointed out, that’s what happened in Quebec in the spring. The assistance provided to Irving Shipbuilding a few months ago was, as you and we both noted, targeted funding to build combat ships in a way that wasn’t foreseen in the early 2010s. It’s a necessary improvement to reduce costs and delays for the incredibly difficult construction of those 15 combat ships.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: You’re absolutely right about how important confidence is, and that’s why the skilled and experienced public servants at the Canada Border Services Agency, the CBSA, are currently reviewing that contract. It was a complex contract. It includes several dozen contracts and it was complex for all kinds of reasons. Many of those contracts had nothing to do with developing the software; they were for providing advice to public servants or Canadians. We know that 125,000 Canadians had to cross the border every day, and many of them were people who had to bring prescription drugs, food and essential goods into the country. The CBSA’s experts are currently reviewing many components of that contract, and we have confidence in them.

Hon. Amina Gerba: Welcome to the Senate, Minister Duclos.

Studies have shown that Black entrepreneurs have to overcome a large number of obstacles and face systemic discrimination when developing a business venture.

One of the main obstacles they face is access to the federal public procurement process. Having been an entrepreneur myself for two decades, I’ve seen how important it is to have access to the public market. In particular, we know that public procurement can make the difference between staying small and going multinational.

Minister, your department has put initiatives in place to diversify its suppliers. Can you tell us what has been done specifically to ensure that Black entrepreneurs have access to government contracts?

To answer quickly, you seem to be familiar with the plan to increase the diversity of supply chains in Canada. This plan was launched about two years ago, and one of its sub-components focuses on support for businesses owned or managed by Black entrepreneurs in this country. The plan also includes a pilot project through which a dozen or so procurement opportunities have already been created.

As you correctly stated, this initiative is designed not only to help these entrepreneurs participate fully in growing the economy, in a dynamic perspective that prepares them for larger contracts down the road, but it also brings greater competition to the procurement process, which you alluded to earlier. The more competition there is, the more diversity we have among suppliers. The better the government’s terms of reference are, the higher the quality of the services offered to Canadians will be.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you. I am going to both correct and confirm what you said.

It is incorrect to say that no action has been taken and that no contract has been entered into or discussed with Seaspan, which has been part of the strategy since 2011.

I would be pleased to give you more information about the positive progress being made at this shipyard on the construction of the polar icebreaker.

As for the Davie shipyard, we are obviously talking longer term because it was unfairly and inappropriately excluded from the first National Shipbuilding Strategy in 2011 by the government of the day. Everyone in Quebec and elsewhere in the country is delighted that this mistake was corrected a few months ago. Naturally, we have to work with the shipyard in its current condition, after it was excluded from the first strategy.

We are working very well with the Davie shipyard. Its staff are dynamic and their suppliers’ association is amazing. It travels across the country and around the globe promoting the importance of investing in Quebec City, in Quebec and in Canada, for projects like the construction of the icebreaker they will eventually receive.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Welcome, minister.

The response that I received recently from your government regarding the procurement of icebreakers confirms that it is now practically impossible for the Trudeau government to meet its objective of getting a single polar icebreaker in service by 2030.

Your government told me that contract negotiations have not even begun yet, whether it be with Davie or Vancouver.

Why did your government not place any real importance on your own deadline of 2030, and why didn’t it rigorously and diligently take the necessary steps to meet that objective?

Hon. Jim Quinn: Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Mr. Duclos.

[English]

When bidders respond to tender requests, they respond to technical and other requirements as outlined in the tender and submit their cost for delivery of a service and a product. Our process is such that the lowest qualified bid wins the contract. However, far too often the qualified bid with the lowest price has been underbid to the point that “extras” or “work arisings” result in a final price that far exceeds the price submitted in the bid. What steps can the government take to reduce the risk associated with underbidding?

If I can go back briefly — because I know time is always too short — to your first question on the integrity of the process, I can assure you that it is my responsibility and the responsibility of my officials to make sure that when a contract is awarded, the requirements that the businesses signing those contracts accept are followed up on and enforced if it is necessary to enforce them.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you again for that great question.

In regard to community benefits, they include both the social and environmental benefits of using procurement as an important public policy tool.

In regard to social benefits, we’ve already spoken about the importance of supporting various groups whose relative exclusion in the procurement process harms Canadians who are from those groups, but it is also harmful to the overall competitiveness of procurement processes.

When more providers and suppliers are included — including women, Indigenous Canadians and Black-owned or Black-led businesses — everyone benefits. That is the first piece, and the second piece is green procurement.

This is a good statistic: Between 2005 and 2023, investments in properties and federally‑owned buildings decreased the level of greenhouse gas, or GHG, emissions by 60%. Now, in 2023, we have 60% less GHG emissions than in 2005 because of the non-economic impact of investments in our communities, so these are important aspects as well.

Hon. Julie Miville-Dechêne: Hello and thank you for being here with us, minister.

Government procurement has reached nearly $22 billion a year. That is a lot of money. Some companies that are making efforts to incorporate recycled items and, more generally, to accelerate the transition to a circular economy are complaining that your procurement process doesn’t include incentives for this.

I know that the government has a policy on green procurement, but I gather that these criteria are not always enforced. Is that right? Is it just one criterion among hundreds of others, or is it a priority?

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister, in May, the Trudeau government said it would finally bring forward its plan — by this fall — on the future of 24 Sussex Drive. Today is October 18, and we have still not seen this plan.

In February, your department provided me with a written answer which shows that since 2016, your government has spent over $800,000 of taxpayers’ money trying to figure out what to do with 24 Sussex Drive. Eight long years, with over $800,000 spent, and there’s still no plan, minister.

Are you going to bring one forward this fall, as promised? If not, are you just going to keep spending taxpayers’ money without making a decision?