The Hon. the Speaker: Thank you, minister.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: The fact that this question comes from you is very significant, since you, along with many others, worked on getting Davie added to the National Shipbuilding Strategy. Many people know that and are grateful to you.

That being said, over the next few years, a major national maritime hub will be established in the Quebec City area. This hub will have a considerable impact from both a technological and a purely industrial standpoint. It will change the lives of tens of thousands of workers and give contracts to about 1,300 service providers. We know that similar shipbuilders, such as Irving and Seaspan, faced some issues in the early 2010s. Every one of them, including Davie, has had to pay for their technology and production upgrades themselves. That’s what happened in the other provinces, with support from the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and British Columbia. As you pointed out, that’s what happened in Quebec in the spring. The assistance provided to Irving Shipbuilding a few months ago was, as you and we both noted, targeted funding to build combat ships in a way that wasn’t foreseen in the early 2010s. It’s a necessary improvement to reduce costs and delays for the incredibly difficult construction of those 15 combat ships.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: You’re absolutely right about how important confidence is, and that’s why the skilled and experienced public servants at the Canada Border Services Agency, the CBSA, are currently reviewing that contract. It was a complex contract. It includes several dozen contracts and it was complex for all kinds of reasons. Many of those contracts had nothing to do with developing the software; they were for providing advice to public servants or Canadians. We know that 125,000 Canadians had to cross the border every day, and many of them were people who had to bring prescription drugs, food and essential goods into the country. The CBSA’s experts are currently reviewing many components of that contract, and we have confidence in them.

Hon. Amina Gerba: Welcome to the Senate, Minister Duclos.

Studies have shown that Black entrepreneurs have to overcome a large number of obstacles and face systemic discrimination when developing a business venture.

One of the main obstacles they face is access to the federal public procurement process. Having been an entrepreneur myself for two decades, I’ve seen how important it is to have access to the public market. In particular, we know that public procurement can make the difference between staying small and going multinational.

Minister, your department has put initiatives in place to diversify its suppliers. Can you tell us what has been done specifically to ensure that Black entrepreneurs have access to government contracts?

To answer quickly, you seem to be familiar with the plan to increase the diversity of supply chains in Canada. This plan was launched about two years ago, and one of its sub-components focuses on support for businesses owned or managed by Black entrepreneurs in this country. The plan also includes a pilot project through which a dozen or so procurement opportunities have already been created.

As you correctly stated, this initiative is designed not only to help these entrepreneurs participate fully in growing the economy, in a dynamic perspective that prepares them for larger contracts down the road, but it also brings greater competition to the procurement process, which you alluded to earlier. The more competition there is, the more diversity we have among suppliers. The better the government’s terms of reference are, the higher the quality of the services offered to Canadians will be.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you. I am going to both correct and confirm what you said.

It is incorrect to say that no action has been taken and that no contract has been entered into or discussed with Seaspan, which has been part of the strategy since 2011.

I would be pleased to give you more information about the positive progress being made at this shipyard on the construction of the polar icebreaker.

As for the Davie shipyard, we are obviously talking longer term because it was unfairly and inappropriately excluded from the first National Shipbuilding Strategy in 2011 by the government of the day. Everyone in Quebec and elsewhere in the country is delighted that this mistake was corrected a few months ago. Naturally, we have to work with the shipyard in its current condition, after it was excluded from the first strategy.

We are working very well with the Davie shipyard. Its staff are dynamic and their suppliers’ association is amazing. It travels across the country and around the globe promoting the importance of investing in Quebec City, in Quebec and in Canada, for projects like the construction of the icebreaker they will eventually receive.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Welcome, minister.

The response that I received recently from your government regarding the procurement of icebreakers confirms that it is now practically impossible for the Trudeau government to meet its objective of getting a single polar icebreaker in service by 2030.

Your government told me that contract negotiations have not even begun yet, whether it be with Davie or Vancouver.

Why did your government not place any real importance on your own deadline of 2030, and why didn’t it rigorously and diligently take the necessary steps to meet that objective?

Hon. Jim Quinn: Thank you for joining us this afternoon, Mr. Duclos.

[English]

When bidders respond to tender requests, they respond to technical and other requirements as outlined in the tender and submit their cost for delivery of a service and a product. Our process is such that the lowest qualified bid wins the contract. However, far too often the qualified bid with the lowest price has been underbid to the point that “extras” or “work arisings” result in a final price that far exceeds the price submitted in the bid. What steps can the government take to reduce the risk associated with underbidding?

If I can go back briefly — because I know time is always too short — to your first question on the integrity of the process, I can assure you that it is my responsibility and the responsibility of my officials to make sure that when a contract is awarded, the requirements that the businesses signing those contracts accept are followed up on and enforced if it is necessary to enforce them.

Hon. Julie Miville-Dechêne: Hello and thank you for being here with us, minister.

Government procurement has reached nearly $22 billion a year. That is a lot of money. Some companies that are making efforts to incorporate recycled items and, more generally, to accelerate the transition to a circular economy are complaining that your procurement process doesn’t include incentives for this.

I know that the government has a policy on green procurement, but I gather that these criteria are not always enforced. Is that right? Is it just one criterion among hundreds of others, or is it a priority?

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister, in May, the Trudeau government said it would finally bring forward its plan — by this fall — on the future of 24 Sussex Drive. Today is October 18, and we have still not seen this plan.

In February, your department provided me with a written answer which shows that since 2016, your government has spent over $800,000 of taxpayers’ money trying to figure out what to do with 24 Sussex Drive. Eight long years, with over $800,000 spent, and there’s still no plan, minister.

Are you going to bring one forward this fall, as promised? If not, are you just going to keep spending taxpayers’ money without making a decision?

Hon. Ratna Omidvar: Thank you for being with us, minister.

In 2018 to 2019, I was the Senate sponsor of Bill C-344, which amended the Department of Public Works and Government Services Act, and required your department to consider the provision of community benefits in its procurement processes: jobs, business opportunities, et cetera. The bill fell off the Order Paper because the election was called in 2019. Subsequently, then-Minister of Public Services and Procurement Carla Qualtrough wrote to me saying that, notwithstanding, she would consider a policy ensuring that public benefits were considered in the procurement process.

Can you give me an update on this particular aspect of procurement?

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you for the question, senator.

The answer is yes and no. It is indeed an important criterion, but it’s not the only one. Among all the criteria that public servants and the people managing these contracts have to take into account, there are others as well. The environmental impact of our procurement process is key — increasingly so — because we know that we can’t keep going in the same direction, from an environmental point of view, because we will hit a wall. We saw the preliminary impact over the past few months in Canada and Quebec.

However, there are other important criteria, such as social inclusion, social participation and obviously efficiency, which, as I was saying, is sometimes improved and supported by other criteria. Again, the social inclusion criterion broadens participation in the procurement process. It supports greater competition in these processes, which means better results for the Canadian government and for Canadians.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: First, in regard to the timeline, my predecessor — whom you would know — did say that we are looking forward to the fall to provide Canadians, and the Senate indirectly, with an update on what the plan is for official residences, including the official residence of the Prime Minister.

Second, 24 Sussex Drive is currently being worked on. Asbestos is being removed, and the integrity of the building is being protected. Whatever the final decision may be, the building will be there. It won’t be in its current shape because it’s not safe — for the reasons that I just mentioned — but it will be available for the use that Canadians will want to make of it.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you, Senator Dagenais. I don’t know enough about this issue. It falls more within the purview of my colleague, the Minister of Justice. I could ask him to contact you.

Hon. Jean-Guy Dagenais: Hello, minister. In 2020, Public Services and Procurement Canada acquired a parking lot in Old Montreal to build a new building for the Federal Court and its prosecutors. That lot cost $7 million for 150,000 square feet of office space, plus the construction bill. Can you justify this project to relocate the Federal Court, which is already located in another building in Old Montreal? It certainly doesn’t make sense, especially at a time when the President of the Treasury Board is calling for $15 billion in cuts to government spending.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you very much. That was a great question, and I would have liked to have listened to it completely. Maybe your second chance will make that possible.

You pointed to the right elements: first, safety; second, the precinct versus the city; and third, the important work with the City of Ottawa.

It has been clear over the last few years — and it is increasingly clear — that the safety of parliamentarians, including senators, must be at the centre of the conversation that we’re having with the City of Ottawa on the future of Wellington Street. It is also true that as we see the enhancement and modernization of our parliamentary facilities, we are moving from a precinct to a parliamentary city. That’s good news, I think, for most Canadians. We’ve seen the beneficial outcomes of this in other countries of the world.

Finally, you are quite correct to point out the important relationship that we need to have with the City of Ottawa. I will meet with the mayor quite soon, and I look forward to reporting on the outcome of that meeting.

The Hon. the Speaker: Thank you, senator.

[English]

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister, two years ago, one of your predecessors was tasked in her mandate letter from the Prime Minister with the following: continue the modernization of procurement practices; renew the Coast Guard and navy fleets; ensure the ongoing delivery of defence procurement; resolve outstanding Phoenix pay system issues; rehabilitate 24 Sussex; replace the Alexandra Bridge, plus build an additional crossing on the Ottawa River; ensure a minimum of 5% of the total value of federal contracts for Indigenous businesses.

Minister, you have not received your mandate letter. Is it because it would only be a copy-and-paste of the old one since nothing has been done on the other one since the last election?

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you. Your question is, again, fair, and it will require a long answer. Let me, therefore, point to just two things that you briefly mentioned.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy, I just mentioned earlier the great and long-awaited progress we have been able to make, including the Davie shipyards as the new third shipyard in the new National Shipbuilding Strategy. This is a significant step which will lead to faster delivery of ships that the Coast Guard and other organizations require, at a lower cost, at a higher speed and with greater outcomes for Canadian industry.

On the 5% Indigenous procurement target, I spoke to that earlier. A number of departments have already exceeded that target; others need to work harder. We look forward to posting and revealing the global estimate toward the beginning of 2024.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you very much. Your question is both fair and legitimate. I will be glad to come back to you with the details that you are seeking. I don’t have these details with me, but I would be glad to do that with the assistance of my officials.