Senator Audette: Yes.

[English]

Senator McCallum: I heard for the third time people saying that there was extensive consultation done with residential school survivors. As a former student who went through an eight-hour day to do my story, you cannot consult when we are in the midst of darkness and just starting to sift through experience. Don’t you think that testifying publicly about painful personal memories and having it relegated to consultation is hurtful and does injury to former students? Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Audette: Thank you very much. If the choice of words hurt you, I’m sorry. If the words I used for quotes from a former commissioner hurt you, I’m sorry. However, for many people in my family, and for me as I participated alongside them, when we were asked if the consultation was clear and precise, I might reply that we were asked if we had any recommendations or suggestions.

I suppose it depends on the region, but there will never be enough dialogue. We can do away with the term “consultations.” I will heed your message, however, because it’s important. You are among those who were subjected to these traumas. I’m so sorry. I’ll be careful.

Nevertheless, I want to honour those who asked us to do more. Maybe we can choose better words together so we can get more done together.

[English]

Senator Martin: I think that NWAC deserves to be there with the other guaranteed seats. What I’m saying is that I also believe that CAP is a national organization that has been recognized in a number of ways, including by receiving funding. Our colleague Senator Brazeau came to the committee and gave us a very good testimony on the history and work of CAP. He himself led the organization.

I think there are so many organizations across the country. Senator, I know you work tirelessly, but I think that not everybody will have worked with every single organization. I just stand by the position that I’m taking because of what we heard at committee, including from Senator Brazeau.

Senator Martin: Yes.

Senator Martin: I don’t see it as arbitrary. Only NWAC and CAP were included to have a guaranteed seat in the House. This is the history of the bill and what happened in the other place.

There are so many organizations. I’m not taking away from any of the others as to what they do and how important they are, but CAP is a national organization that has done a lot of work and it was accepted by the committee in the other place. That’s why I’m focusing on CAP and no other groups, which I could have. I don’t know how I would choose because there are so many that do such good work.

I think this will be the challenge for the council, even after we adopt this bill, namely, what will the makeup of the board be? I chose CAP specifically because of what happened in the other place.

Senator Martin: I can’t answer that question specifically, senator. As I said, I am basing it on the testimony that we heard and the information that I gathered. I was on their website, and I have met with their leadership. Like I said, they were included in the House. That’s why I brought it forward. That’s what I can say to your question.

Senator Boyer: Thank you. I am curious as to where the hundreds of thousands of members come from with CAP. My experience with CAP was when I first became a senator, I asked them to come and sit with me and talk to me about their membership. They did. The question that I had was, “Who are your members and where are they?” The answer I got was, “I don’t know.”

I’m curious to know where that 850,000 comes from because, as a Métis, they don’t represent me and they don’t represent any of my family or anybody I know.

Senator Martin: Yes, exactly. There are five national organizations. The government kept the Native Women’s Association of Canada, or NWAC, but removed CAP, and it’s not clear what criteria they were using. That inconsistency was noted. As I said earlier, based on the testimony that we heard and the history of this bill, I believe that CAP should be included.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, there have been consultations and there is an agreement to allow a photographer in the Senate Chamber to photograph the introduction of a new senator.

Is it agreed, honourable senators?

Senator McCallum: Yes.

Senator Quinn: Thank you very much. During the committee’s work, did any members — CAP is purporting to represent whomever they represent — but the people who are represented, did they email? Usually in these situations, we get advocacy from people who are part of the organization. So did any of that happen? Were there any emails or letters that committee members or you received that said, “Hey, I’m part of that organization, and they do represent me.” Was there any of that at all?

Senator McCallum: I’m not a regular member of the Indigenous Peoples Committee. I didn’t receive any mail. I did go out and ask those representing missing and murdered women. They said they come to our meetings, but they haven’t done anything. I have gone to Sixties Scoop; they don’t represent them. I have asked people in Manitoba, “What do you know about CAP?” and I have not heard anything.

Maybe other members received information, but I didn’t. I did talk with two of the administrators, and they’ve never provided information to me. Thank you.

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

(Motion agreed to.)

(At 9:30 p.m., the Senate was continued until tomorrow at 2 p.m.)

Senator Simons: As I have said, we have bail laws in this country that allow Crown prosecutors to demand that the judge not grant bail. We have judges and justices of the peace who have the power to deny bail. I’m not opposing that.

What I am saying is that we need to be careful that we use the reverse onus provisions — which are truly extraordinary — in the most extraordinary of cases.

If we want to deal with the issues that you outline, it’s pretty difficult to convict people for crimes that they have never been accused of. If we want to provide more resources for women’s shelters across the country, by all means, let us do so. If we want to provide more legal advice and legal aid, and more funding for family legal aid programs so that women who are seeking separation from partners and who are seeking protection from domestic violence can receive that, then absolutely.

I could sit here and list 20 public policy strategies that would help to reduce domestic violence in ways that would be far more effectual than this.

Senator Boisvenu: Coming from you? Of course.

Senator Gold: Thank you.

Senator Simons: Thank you very much, Senator Gold. Let me take the first part of the question first.

Ms. Sharma used the phrase “repeat violent offenders.” A person who has one absolute discharge on their record could surely not be considered a repeat violent offender. My concern is precisely that: This broadens the net of who is captured in the reverse onus provision and expands it beyond repeat violent offenders who — we could all agree — are a far greater risk to society than a person who has one absolute discharge, for an example.

As to your second point, of course I am concerned about the horrific levels of family violence in this country, which is predominantly violence of men against women and which is disproportionately affecting the Indigenous population. That does not mean that we throw the baby out with the bathwater. It is necessary to construct a bail regime that provides security for women whose partners have been alleged to have abused them. That doesn’t mean the reverse onus, which is a brute cookie cutter of an instrument.

It would be far more beneficial, for example, for a man who’s been charged with spousal assault to be provided with a bail bed and some kind of supervised release. The problem comes about if people are released without conditions, if people are released with conditions that cannot possibly be met or if people are released to either the choice of homelessness or returning to the domestic situation where the violence occurred.

By all means, let us find ways to protect women in their homes from violent partners. I fail to see that reversing the onus for somebody who has had one absolute or conditional discharge gets us there.

[Translation]

Senator Boisvenu: I would like another five minutes, please.