Senator Batters: With respect to the natural gas that’s used to heat the barns and that type of thing, Senator Wells, can you give us some indication as to the costs for that? I understand that you’ve recently received some correspondence from a chicken farmer in Alberta who talked about the massive costs. I think they relayed that, last year, the heating cost for their barn was $120,000, and that it was $180,000 this year. When the carbon tax reaches $170 per tonne, it will be $480,000 annually.

Are those the types of costs that we are trying to help farmers with so that food can eventually cost less for us?

Senator Wells: Thank you for your question. Now, I will also tell you I don’t know a lot about chicken farming, but I did visit a poultry farm in southern Alberta. I asked for a tour. They wouldn’t give me a tour because of biosecurity and that sort of thing, which I understand. But I spent a lot of time asking about their operation. I hope to get to your question.

The time it takes from the hatching of an egg to the selling of a chicken is eight weeks. This is a constant. They have eight barns on two sites. I think they actually use propane because their community is not furnished with natural gas. They have limited choices already, so they use propane. They gave me their numbers based on the price of carbon, and at $170 per tonne, it will be close to half a million dollars per year. That was a modest-sized operation. It wasn’t big.

I do know that the price of natural gas is decreasing. Senator Dalphond pointed that out at committee, and he is correct. But that’s not a constant. We don’t know what the price of natural gas will be next year. Or propane. We live in a volatile, geopolitical world, and hope is not a plan when you are trying to make money from a business.

Other than that, it is costly. I know this particular farmer was doing all they could — again, it was a family farm. They had the best insulation, and heat shields on the sunny side of the barn to deflect the heat so it wouldn’t have a greater effect on their barn. They used ventilation. Of course, in the prairie winter, they have to heat the place.

Again, I think I mentioned this in an earlier speech, but there is a very narrow range in which they have to keep these chickens. Three or four degrees above, and they last minutes. Anything below, and he said they last a little bit longer, but they will still die. That’s what I know about the price and the cost that it takes these farmers with respect to the fuel they need for heating and cooling the barns.

[Translation]

Senator Batters: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Senator Wells, thank you very much for your detailed speech on Bill C-234, which is so crucial to farmers not only in my home province of Saskatchewan but across the country.

You mentioned in your speech that grain dryers are a significant capital expense, and just having a tiny bit of experience with this — being that many years ago and for about 30-some years my dad sold farm equipment, including grain dryers, I know how significant this expense is. I wanted to give some of our colleagues a chance to know about that as well.

Isn’t it true that a new grain dryer, which is the most efficient type that can be purchased right now, is probably an expense costing between $100,000 to $150,000 each for a farm? I’m not talking about a commercial grain dryer, just a regular farm one. It may even be more now as the costs have gone up considerably.

Senator Wells: Senator Batters, thank you for your question. I will be frank — I don’t know the price of a grain dryer. But I do know that after debate finished on Tuesday, I went to the Canola Growers Association reception and I spoke with a family farmer who has a canola farm about an hour north of Ottawa. She told me that if Bill C-234 passes — and it is not a big farm — they will be able to buy a grain dryer instead of having to send grain to North Gower, just south of Ottawa, and their payback period would be 12 years with the savings that they would realize from not having to pay the carbon tax.

I don’t know the price of a dryer, but I do know that for this small canola farmer, who wishes to dry their own grain on their own farm because they have more control — and, of course, there would be fewer transport costs sending it out — that a 12‑year payback is reasonable on a piece of industrial equipment. Further, with that additional money in their pockets, going to the bank and seeking credit would be a lot easier than if it were otherwise.

Senator Plett: Your Honour, you have not yet ruled on the point of order.

The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, as is allowed by our practice, Senator Boyer will speak in Michif during our proceedings today. Senators may listen to the simultaneous interpretation on the English or French channel.

Senator Martin: I agree about honouring our veterans and their service, which is why this is such an important project.

It is about the process, senator, and our Afghan veterans deserve better than this, as do the families of the fallen. Now there are delays.

A House of Commons committee has voted to further investigate the mismanagement of this monument over the objections of its Liberal members.

Leader, does the Trudeau government commit to providing all relevant, unredacted documents to the House committee?

Senator Quinn: Thank you, Senator Wells, for your speech and the debate and questions back and forth.

Regarding your example of the farm south of North Gower that ships up to North Gower to have grain dried, the place that dries the grain, will it benefit from Bill C-234? If so, would it be safe to assume that the person sending the grain to that facility would have less likelihood of increased costs going to the right to use that facility?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Quinn. That is a good question. The farmer who would send the grain to North Gower for off-site drying told me they proposed to dry the grain on their own farm with a new dryer. She showed me a picture on her phone of what this dryer looked like. I was highly engaged because I do not know anything about this, and I am happy to learn what a grain dryer looks like. They would do it on their own site. They would have immediate savings in their costs because if they send it to North Gower, they are also paying the additional cost of transport.

They are probably absorbing some of the higher costs that the off-site dryer would have because they would be subject to a carbon tax.

The first part of your question was, “Would the off-site grain dryer in North Gower benefit?” Probably not because they will get less product, because that will be staying on the farm for a more efficient, less costly drying that would not, obviously, include the carbon tax.

Senator Batters: Right.

Senator Wells: Certainly, one of the things that I did learn is when a farmer goes to a bank or goes to a lender, their case is a whole lot better when they don’t have this additional burden and they can apply that benefit that is retained in their earnings to their application for funds. Normally it is a long-term lease. Certainly, it would be more beneficial along those lines.

Senator Clement: I do not.

Senator Dalphond: I spoke with farmers, and I can give you the information. I have the bills. The tax on carbon this year is two cents per cubic metre. That is the increase. Last year it was two cents. The year before it was two cents per cubic metre. Maybe, Senator Wells, you can tell us the price of natural gas in Ontario?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Dalphond, for your question. I do not know the price of natural gas in Ontario. I only know the amount of actual dollars that farmers have to pay — large, medium and small — is considerable and derives no benefit to their farm and probably no benefit to the environment.

Senator Dalphond: Thank you, senator. Thank you for your speech. There is a lot that has been said, and I am glad that you agreed with some of the things I said speaking of Budget 2023.

Do you know how much it costs for somebody who is raising chickens or turkeys in Ontario using natural gas? How much does the carbon tax cost this year per cubic metre on the price of gas?

Senator Wells: I do not know that exact amount, no.

Senator Dalphond: Would you accept another question?

Senator Wells: Yes.

Senator Dalphond: Will you accept another question?

Senator Moncion: I believe that it is similar.

Senator Dalphond: I do not know if Senator Wells will take another question from me.

Senator Wells: Senator Dalphond, it is my policy to take questions until my time is up.

Senator Simons: This is the editor and fact checker in me. Senator Quinn asked you a question about whether this would lower costs for off-site grain drying.

To clarify for everyone, is it not true that this bill does not apply to off-site commercial grain dryers but only, in fact, applies to farmers using grain dryers on their own farms?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Simons. You are right. This only applies to on-site grain drying. But having been in business and having done quite a bit of production costing in my life, I would make the assumption that it would be more expensive per unit for the off-site grain dryer, regardless of the tax, only because they would have less volume. They would still have their drying costs but less volume. Perhaps I should not assume, but normally the higher the volume you have, to a certain point, the less costly your per-unit costs are.

Senator Batters: Isn’t it true that brand-new grain dryers that are the most efficient do have a saving on the energy costs; however, the substantial cost is that a brand-new very efficient grain dryer could be $150,000 or more? Isn’t that correct?

Senator Wells: Thank you, Senator Batters.

A grain dryer is a huge cost. If you have a larger farm, you are going to require more drying capacity. That would either be multiple dryers or a dryer that has that higher capacity. I can only imagine that will be a higher capital cost. Certainly, if it is on‑farm, then at least you have some of the benefit of not having to pay the tax on the drying operation.

Senator Moncion: Yes, I will.

Hon. Yvonne Boyer: Honourable senators, today I will be delivering my statement in Michif, the language that the Métis grandfathers and grandmothers spoke. Elder Norman Fleury helped me write this speech; he is my teacher and will be interpreting for you. As I stand here in this chamber, there are children across the homeland who are learning the Michif language and culture in schools. This gives me hope that our language will survive through the generations, for its protection and revitalization must come through the young people. I speak Michif today to honour my kin and their resilience, and to show it is a living language. This statement is for the ancestors and our future, the children . . .

[Editor’s Note: Senator Boyer spoke in Michif — interpretation follows.]

Honourable senators, I am Yvonne Boyer. I am a member of the Métis Nation. My roots are in Saskatchewan and the Red River in Manitoba. I am the great-granddaughter of Narcisse Boyer, who was an American Michif from the Turtle Mountain Chippewa Band in North Dakota. And I am related to Alexis L’Esperance, who was the leader of the La Loche Boat Brigade, which were military boatmen who supported Louis Riel during the Red River Resistance of 1869-70. I also have family in Northern Ireland in the province of Ulster.

This language that I am speaking is called Michif. The Michif language has been around for a long time. From us — we made it ourselves. It is our language. Our old people are working hard so that our language doesn’t die. I am trying to speak my language. If we lose our language, we will lose who we are and our nation.

Today, as I speak my Michif language with all of you, I would like to say who we are as Michifs, and also that it is important that we keep what was given to us by the Creator and we don’t lose our way of life.

It’s for our children and future generations. I say thank you to Norman Fleury for the Michif language.

[English]

I urge everyone here to support the preservation and revival of Michif and other Indigenous languages. It’s crucial for us to embrace our culture, to empower our communities and to ensure that the Michif voice, once quieted, echoes through generations to come.

Senator Gold: I have been advised that the government takes all appropriate and possible measures to ensure that the aid reaches those whom it is designed and intended to assist: civilians in Gaza or, indeed, elsewhere in the world where many citizens are subject to non-democratic — sometimes autocratic — governments.