Senator Gold: I’m not privy to the details of the discussions between the ministers, and I’m not sure that it is a matter of public record. I do know that the Minister of Health and his counterparts are in constant discussion, as are officials, on these matters. I know that this government and this particular minister feel very strongly that the federal government should continue to do its part with the provinces and territories to help them get ready.

Cooperative federalism also means respecting the sovereign jurisdiction of the provinces to decide exactly what their greatest needs are and where to put them. Some provinces are focusing more on services in rural areas, others perhaps in other areas, and that’s just an ongoing give and take between the federal government and its counterparts.

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. The challenges that Indigenous communities face with inadequate access to health care and the high rates of despair and suicide are tragically well known. Therefore, I have been advised that the subject of MAID is one, frankly, that many communities don’t even want to talk about; consultation and engagement are a two-way street. It’s not something that one can insist on or enforce.

I’ve been advised that it has taken time to bring people to the table and to explore the fact that Parliament has passed a law that says, subject to the sunset clause, access to MAID — where mental illness is the sole underlying condition — will be in effect in three years, and is working with and funding Indigenous communities to better understand. Also, it’s important to listen to and hear from Indigenous communities about what their needs are because their needs are enormous in order to provide care and support for people who find themselves in desperate circumstances, and for whom the resources to support, treat and heal them are inadequate.

The government is doing what it can at the pace that the communities are willing to engage in, and will be reporting on a regular basis to Parliament on the progress of that as well.

Senator Miville-Dechêne: Yes.

Senator Martin: I think my colleagues who served on the committee would agree that it was very rushed, and we were pressed for time.

I worry about the three-year extension. Personally, I would like an indefinite pause so that a bill can be tabled when we are ready, whether it be three years or longer. One year sounds like a lot of time, but in a parliamentary cycle, many things can interrupt that time. That is what happened to our previous committee. There was a winter recess, so we had less time than we thought we had over the six months given to us. I can’t answer that accurately because I don’t know. I know that we will reconvene and we will be tasked to fulfill our mandate.

That’s why I think we need more than three years. At least this bill gives us three years; therefore, I will support this bill.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much, Senator Martin, and I respect your opinion. I know we differ on this, but I also know that you respect my opinion, and I think our personal friendship and the way we have worked together for many years is a good reflection of how we can differ, but we can respect that. I also thank you for pointing out that “never ready” may be the logical outcome of this bill, and I respect that this is how you feel it should be.

You mentioned consensus. We’ve had this discussion with other questions about consensus. You’re right. Some psychiatrists would continue to try treatment after treatment after treatment, even after decades, and the patient is completely exhausted. It happens in oncology as well until someone says they don’t want any more treatment.

For those here who haven’t read it, there’s a fantastic Substack article that was published last week saying that psychiatry has a futility problem. That’s right, and I would like your opinion on this. Some psychiatrists seem unable to acknowledge futility, but they want to expose patients to more and more treatments, which not only causes harm but also undermines patient autonomy and violates the principles of truth telling and trustworthiness. Do you think we should be in a situation where we allow some physicians to keep doing that to patients?

Hon. Wanda Thomas Bernard: Honourable senators, I rise today during Black History Month to recognize Lincoln Alexander Day, albeit a little late.

Last month, the Dalhousie School of Social Work hosted a Lincoln Alexander event, where they invited me to present the findings of the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights report Anti-Black Racism, Sexism and Systemic Discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Commission. A panel of social work students discussed the report, which was followed by a conversation prompted by critical questions asked by students.

The evening opened with the following spoken-word tribute by one of the students. It is my pleasure to share that with you today. It is called “A Legacy Resounds” by Erika Downey Campbell:

In the crucible of courage, where injustice meets the fire of resolve, There stood Lincoln Alexander, a titan in the struggle to evolve. With confidence as his compass, he sailed uncharted seas, Championing racial equity with the wind of determination in his pleas.

In the Royal Canadian Air Force, a wireless operator he became, Yet, in Vancouver’s bars, a bitter chord struck in racism’s name. Refused service for the color of his skin, he faced the cruel song, But in his heart, the melody of perseverance was strong.

A symphony of humility, in an honorable discharge, he found, As he quit the Air Force, on justice’s battleground. “Turned a blind eye,” he said of those who couldn’t see, The need to shatter discrimination’s discordant decree. Through corridors of power, where privilege built its gate, He challenged, with resilience, the discriminatory fate. A face of Black empowerment in a changing nation’s tide, He advocated for education, inclusion, dignity side by side. “Determination fueled by education,” he passionately declared, A path to limitless possibilities, the legacy he shared.

From schoolyard battles to the dean’s racial slur, His anti-racism work, a lifelong concerto of courage. In the jazz of his life, where hard work harmonized, Lincoln Alexander’s melody, a beacon that still guides. An anthem of equality, a symphony for the free, His legacy resounds in the chorus of opportunity.

Asante.

Senator Plett: I asked for a name, and I still didn’t receive it.

In recent weeks, we’ve heard that 1,700 emails related to “ArriveScam” have been deleted. Last Thursday, a House committee heard that the number of deleted emails could be much higher — in the tens of thousands. Which figure is correct, leader? How many “ArriveScam” emails were deleted to try to hide this corruption and waste under this Trudeau government?

Senator Carignan: I will explain what happened, leader. The fact is that the company is used simply as a front, claiming to be Indigenous. Money is taken out of the budget for contracts awarded to Indigenous companies, who then sub-contract to non‑Indigenous companies. The amount of $7.9 million that is usually allocated to Indigenous companies was given to non‑Indigenous companies.

Will the government commit to conducting a full audit of every contract awarded to Indigenous companies to ensure that the sums are indeed going to Indigenous people?

Senator Gold: Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That, notwithstanding the order adopted by the Senate on September 21, 2022, the sitting of Wednesday, February 28, 2024, continue beyond 4 p.m., if Government Business is not completed, and adjourn at the earlier of the completion of Government Business or midnight; and

That the Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade be authorized to meet after 4 p.m. on that day for the purpose of considering Bill C-57, An Act to implement the 2023 Free Trade Agreement between Canada and Ukraine, even though the Senate may then be sitting, with rule 12-18(1) being suspended in relation thereto.

Senator Gold: It is unacceptable for a company or an individual to try to circumvent a policy designed to support and encourage certain businesses, whether they are Indigenous or they work in any other context. Again, the investigation will shed light on the situation because it is unacceptable for such things to happen.

[English]

Senator Gold: The answer is no, senator. The fact is that investigations are under way. Allegations and fingers are being pointed in all kinds of directions. It may serve your partisan or fundraising purposes to continue trying to paint this as a political cover-up. It is not the case. I am happy that you feel as if you are doing your job as you see fit. I’m doing my job as I see fit to give you the answers regarding what the government is doing to get to the bottom of this, including — as I said on a number of occasions — a number of steps that have already been taken to ensure this kind of fiasco vis-à-vis a particular project doesn’t happen again.

Senator Gold: I guess I cannot get tired of responding to these allegations of fraud and corruption, which are not founded on the facts. ArriveCAN cost far too much, and the real problems have been revealed and are being explored. It was used by 60 million Canadians during the pandemic to facilitate their travel across the borders.

Again, I will continue to answer questions so long as it continues to serve your purposes.

Senator Kutcher: Thank you very much for that. I do very much appreciate that your perspective is different than mine. That’s fine and that’s okay, but I think we do have to actually look at what the evidence tells us, and we have to look at what causes discrimination for one group against another group of people for the same argument. I would encourage all of us to think about that.

You mentioned Dr. Kim in your speech. Are you aware that the evidence he gave before the Superior Court Of Québec was discounted and that the judge had substantive concerns about the quality of the evidence that he gave? Maybe you weren’t aware. Otherwise, you probably wouldn’t have quoted him here. I think people need to know that some of the information you provided was actually already litigated in court and the courts found not to support it.

[Translation]

Senator Pate: Thank you very much, Senator Gold. I appreciate that.

Given the repeated calls of the Office of the Correctional Investigator, and the most recent inquest into the death of Terry Baker and that of Ashley Smith, as well as the countless other inquests and inquiries that people with disabling mental health issues be transferred out of prisons to mental health settings, could you please identify what other concrete steps the government is taking to ensure access to sufficient external mental health beds?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: That’s a difficult question. I don’t think politics is a perfect science. I think we’re all trying to find the right way forward in dealing with the very difficult issue that is MAID, broadly speaking.

I think there are specific criteria for psychiatric illnesses that make irremediable consequences generally more difficult to establish than for physical illnesses. I’m not saying, Senator Kutcher, that this is absolute. I’m saying that, based on what I’ve read and on the discussions I’ve had, this is part of the difficulty.

I also think that the safeguards need to be robust. I understand that it is difficult and, as you know, our opinions on this issue differ. I understand that there are people who are waiting for this help and who are suffering, but I believe that what happened in Belgium and the Netherlands shows us that once we open MAID up to those with psychiatric problems... When 1,150 people are requesting MAID in a country that is smaller than Canada, that’s a lot of people. You often talk about people you know who have indeed had illnesses for a very long time, who have tried every treatment, but once that door is open, how will it work? Unlike you, I don’t have absolute confidence in all doctors, all medications and all treatments. I think there are abuses. The fact that there have been 16 cases of MAID in Quebec where tough questions are being asked because it appears the law was not followed shows that these questions are far from easy.

I don’t have a definite answer. I wonder, I have doubts and I think you do, too. However, we have fairly opposite points of view on this issue.

[English]

Senator Gold: Again, that is an important question and a complicated one with regard to — as is too often the case — matters of jurisdiction and provincial responsibility. However, I can say that the government remains committed to supporting all Canadians with their mental health needs and challenges, including substance use challenges, and I will certainly raise this with the minister as well when I have the first opportunity.

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, senator.

The Government of Canada has been supporting provincial governments and their health care systems for many years with large sums of money. Most recently, as we know, the federal government has entered into bilateral agreements with all the provinces and territories respecting, as it must, the constitutional jurisdiction of provinces to determine what their priorities are.

As the Minister of Health shared with us at the Committee of the Whole, each of these bilateral agreements will have funds dedicated for different purposes, and some — but I can’t give you a figure — are going as well to enhance mental health supports. And the government will continue to work with the provinces and territories to do its part to improve access to mental health supports and other ancillary supports in the provinces and territories and in Indigenous communities as well.

We will never have a system that is perfect, and the government is not pretending that everything will be perfect in three years. There will always be — regrettably, tragically, and one can even say shamefully — inequities in access to health care services. It’s not only urban versus rural. It’s even within classes of people within any given area.

The Government of Canada is continuing to do its part with the provinces and territories to provide as much support as it can. Provinces are doing their part as well. The expectation is that with all of the measures that are being done — within the profession, within the provinces and territories, within the institutions such as the hospitals of Ontario or the hospitals in my province and elsewhere — the system will be ready.

Senator Osler: Thank you, Senator Gold. I would suggest that now more than ever when it comes to health care, the federal government should take a leadership role in the spirit of cooperative federalism.

You mentioned the bilateral health care agreements. The health ministers met with Minister Holland in November, and I believe health care agreements have been signed with all but one province/territory.

Are you able to share if a plan for helping the health care system issues was discussed at any of those tables?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question, Senator Kutcher, and also for all the work you have done in educating us and advancing this issue and putting it on the legislative agenda, as we in the Senate did.

In pointing out that only 2% of psychiatrists are trained, it was not to say anything other than the assessment of irremediability and the assessment of someone who is seeking MAID on the basis of mental illness will fall to a large degree — though not completely — on those with psychiatric training and who have received MAID assessment training.

Again, there is no qualitative difference in the suffering at issue, but it may be — and it is believed by many from whom we heard — that there is a more challenging assessment process and a need, perhaps, for greater safeguards with regard to people who present with a mental illness as a sole underlying condition than those who present in the advanced stages of an incurable physical disease and the like.

It’s not a question of why it’s okay for one and not for the other. What we are being told, Senator Kutcher and colleagues, is that the system as a whole is not ready and that even at Track 2 there is a challenge, in some jurisdictions especially, to respond, in their view, adequately to the demand. And the worry, as was expressed, I believe, by CAMH or other testimony, is that simply the system is not ready to provide all of the support needed, not only for the assessors but for the related personnel and the like.

That’s the position of the government with regard to the number of trained assessors at this juncture.

Senator Woo: Yet, Senator Gold, we have said very clearly that we do not make presumptions about the premise of the ICJ’s case, which means we leave open the possibility that a genocide may be found. We have been quick to use the genocide term and declare war crimes in many other instances. Therefore, I ask you this again: What is the government doing to protect Canada and us, as lawmakers, from the possibility of complicity in these crimes against humanity?