SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 212 - Jun/13/23

Jun/13/23 10:37:55 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. On the topic of Standing Orders, we are not supposed to have props in the House of Commons, and showing a party logo on the back of one's paper to the camera is using a prop.

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Jun/13/23 10:38:05 p.m.
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Indeed, everyone knows that partisan logos are not allowed. The hon. member for Mégantic—L'Érable.

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Mr. Luc Berthold

Jun/13/23 10:38:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, according to the Standing Orders of the House, it is not a prop. I believe that we must not go too far or too quickly, and that we must do things properly. I was elected by the people who sent me to the House and who pay me a very good salary. I am well aware that people pay me to be here in the House, and this salary comes with sacrifices that we must accept. I do not see how I could explain to my voters why I should be able to work at home every other day rather than coming to Ottawa, when the contract I have with them is to come here to do my job.

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Mr. Peter Julian (New Westminster—Burnaby, NDP)

Jun/13/23 10:39:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague from Mégantic—L'Érable for his speech. He knows that I really enjoy working with him. However, I must correct certain facts. First, we have been working in hybrid mode for three years. It is not like this just started yesterday. There are still improvements that need to be made for the interpreters, but it does work really well. We know that because the Conservatives use it just as much as the other parties, if not more. Second, we discussed it for a year at the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs. When Parliament asked the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs to do this work, it carried out a year-long study. There was a great deal of consultation, and the Conservatives know as much about it as the other parties do. Therefore, I am somewhat skeptical about the Conservative Party's statements.

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Mr. Luc Berthold

Jun/13/23 10:40:08 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to give an example to show why it is important for us to be present in the House. Tomorrow evening, I am going to offer MPs the chance to watch a documentary on the Lac-Mégantic tragedy. All parliamentarians have been invited to join me to watch the documentary, to see what happened to residents and what caused the tragedy. Unfortunately, some parliamentarians will not be here and will not be able to attend the screening. Why? It is because they are currently in their ridings, instead of being in Ottawa to ensure that they are properly informed and up to speed on the issues that concern all Canadians, particularly those affected by tragedies like the Lac‑Mégantic disaster, for example.

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Hon. Greg Fergus (Parliamentary Secretary to the Prime Minister and to the President of the Treasury Board, Lib.)

Jun/13/23 10:40:58 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I enjoyed the speech by my colleague from Mégantic—L'Érable. I would like to ask him a question. I think that his speech, as valid as it was, did not identify the problem properly. Let us think back on the history of innovation in the House of Commons, like when microphones were brought in in 1957, or television cameras in 1977, and then simultaneous interpretation. Why does my colleague not see hybrid Parliament as another step towards innovation to reform our democratic institutions?

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Mr. Luc Berthold

Jun/13/23 10:41:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I challenge my colleague to tell me, of all the changes he has just noted, how many of them were imposed through the will of one party. How many of those changes to our rules were made by one party, without consensus from all members of the House?

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Mr. Ryan Turnbull (Whitby, Lib.)

Jun/13/23 10:42:27 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, it is great to be here this evening to participate in this debate on Motion No. 26. I will be splitting my time with the member for Kings—Hants. It is my pleasure to participate in this debate tonight because, for me, this is a deeply personal issue. Since being elected in 2019, I have served on the procedure and House affairs committee with many great colleagues whom I am proud to work with every day on that committee. I was a part of the early debates that happened when the COVID-19 pandemic hit. Obviously, our government was intent on continuing to serve Canadians through the pandemic, but it certainly recognized that coming back to the House of Commons at a time when there was a highly communicable disease spreading across the country putting Canadians' lives at risk, we did not want to be a further vector for the spread of that disease. For us, it was imperative that we not come back to the House of Commons physically, but rather work towards innovating and modernizing Parliament in a time of crisis to ensure we could continue to pass legislation, have parliamentary debates, and fulfill our roles and functions as members of Parliament. That, to me, was really important work we did. During that time, of course, we had very lively debates with members of all parties. In particular, I found the Conservatives to be ideologically committed to being back in these green chairs, despite the fact it could potentially spread COVID-19 across the country by us coming to the same physical location, then going back to our communities, and travelling back and forth. It was pretty clear that it just made no sense. However, for some reason, the Conservative Party wanted to criticize the government in public by saying that we did not want to do the work, while trying to tie our hands behind our backs by not allowing Parliament to function in a hybrid format. We had very lively debates where Conservatives tried to filibuster using hybrid, even in the worst crisis for many in our lifetimes. It is consistent with their approach, I have to say, to see them here today opposing this motion. However, I just see it as an opposition to innovating and adopting tools that every other industry has adopted. It seems to me that Parliament needs to modernize to the same degree other industries across Canada have, and within every industry, they are utilizing these tools. We know that Canadians recovering from the pandemic in many of those industries and in many of those jobs are utilizing digital tools to work remotely. This is not to say that I do not recognize the value of being here in person. I actually choose, as many members of Parliament do, to participate in parliamentary debates and proceedings. If I were to take the Conservatives' position, it seems to me that they thought that, if we introduced remote working capabilities for Parliament, no members of Parliament would ever show up in the House of Commons. However, what we have seen is the opposite, which is that members of Parliament generally wish to be here and prefer to be here, and there are many good reasons for that. That does not preclude the fact that members of Parliament would like the option to be able to be in their ridings. What we heard at the procedure and House affairs committee, while undertaking this work to look at whether hybrid provisions in Parliament and the changes that are proposed to the Standing Orders should continue, we actually considered and heard from many witnesses, considered many options, and had, again, very lively debates. Unfortunately, we saw the Bloc switch positions. Its members were originally supportive of hybrid provisions, but they switched their position. I am very happy to see that NDP members have stuck with their arguments for how hybrid proceedings make Parliament more inclusive and representative, and they acknowledge the many benefits that we can retain as a result of having these options for members of Parliament. Why is this so important? It is because it modernizes Parliament. The Inter-Parliamentary Union did detailed research. It has done several reports looking at parliaments around the world. I will mention stats from its extensive report in 2022. It has done statistical research and said, “84% of parliaments [have become] more innovative” as a result of COVID-19. It said 51% of parliaments around the world have held a virtual plenary sitting, and 77% held a virtual committee meetings. It also said, when surveying members of Parliament from around the world, that 88% of members agree that members are more receptive to new ways of working and 80% of members of Parliament trust digital tools and are more likely to use those digital tools as a result of the innovations that came out of COVID-19. The report says, “The research shows parliaments going through a phase of embedding innovations emerging from the...pandemic and institutionalizing new ways of working.” They do not see this as a one-off event. It states, “rather, it has been a catalyst for change that will lead to ongoing and incremental improvements in parliamentary functioning. Innovation and strong leadership are vital”. It talks about strong leadership being vital. The report from the Inter-Parliamentary Union recommends that parliaments around the world take a careful look at the innovations and modernizations of the pandemic to see what can continue to augment and enhance members of Parliament's ability to do their jobs. Before I move on, I will mention more from the report, which I think is very useful for this debate. It talked about business continuity planning being so important and how many parliaments around the world did not have an adequate business continuity plan. In fact, as a result of the pandemic, they actually modified and enhanced their business continuity planning, which makes parliaments more resilient in times of crisis. Members of Parliament are able to participate in debates in those moments of crisis. Business would continue. The business of democracy and the business of the nation would continue despite many of the different types of crises we experience today. We can think of floods, wildfires or many of the other crises we have been going through as a country. It is imperative that our Parliament can function. We also heard from members of Parliament in the PROC committee who came before the committee and testified about their various family situations and the length they had to travel across the country. Many of them are going through compounding health issues and wanting to exercise their parliamentary privilege to participate fully on behalf of their constituents. Our House leader put it really well. He said we do not have a problem with MPs not working hard enough around here, and I think that is true. Members of Parliament, from what I have seen, work hard every day. They are giving 110% or 120%. They are here until midnight or one o'clock in the morning. They are participating in so many different activities on behalf of their constituents. The tools we are here to debate, and hopefully they will continue indefinitely, really enhance our Parliament because they not only enable it to be more inclusive and representative, but also ensure that business continuity can continue and Parliament can continue to function. It also accounts for a compassionate, modern workplace that allows members of Parliament and the way that Parliament functions to compete, in a sense, with other industries that have modernized as well. I appreciate this debate and the opportunity I have had to participate this evening.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Jun/13/23 10:52:27 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, respectfully, I am quite struck by some of the language the member used, like that we have to modernize like other industries. We are not actually just an industry. We play a critical role as the deliberative heart of a nation, which is not an economic activity. It is a fundamental cultural and political activity. It is also not correct to say this is happening in every industry. There are plenty of people who, by the nature of their job or because they are involved in physical work, such as pilots and members of the military, in many cases do not have the flexibility to not be in a particular place at a certain time because that is what is required for the job. Of course in every space we look for ways of modifying that work and function well. I support, for instance, the voting app. It is a reasonable modification. However, it cannot be ignored or glossed over that fundamentally something is lost when one is sitting down speaking to a screen compared to when one is participating in deliberation in a chamber as we are. Does the member acknowledge that?

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Mr. Ryan Turnbull

Jun/13/23 10:53:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member is right that certainly Parliament is different from other industries. There is no doubt that. It is a specific type of function we serve, as is the public service we offer. The very fact we have proven over years Parliament can function remotely discounts the very nature of the member's argument, which is stating that somehow Parliament is like a landscaping job or something else that needs to be hands-on. In fact, Parliament can operate remotely; we have proven that. The other point I would make is on the recruitment and retention of the highest quality candidates. What we heard from witnesses at committee over and over again was that members of Parliament or candidates for elections would be of much higher quality if Parliament had these necessary flexibilities and options for remote participation.

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Mr. Luc Desilets (Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, BQ)

Jun/13/23 10:54:41 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, my colleague talked about adapting. I totally agree that we have to adapt on a daily basis. On the other hand, neither Quebec nor any other province has a hybrid legislature. I would like it if he could name two or three countries in the world that operate in hybrid mode. Some MPs are giving the excuse that their constituency is remote. My colleague's riding, Lac-Saint-Jean, is a seven-hour drive away. The ridings of MPs from British Columbia are a six-hour flight away. Where is the logic?

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Mr. Ryan Turnbull

Jun/13/23 10:55:17 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the member brings up some good points. The Inter-Parliamentary Union report shows there are many parliaments around the world that continue to adopt hybrid proceedings either in committee or in their plenary sessions. They have used digital tools to augment the way they function. Just because some of our provincial legislatures have chosen not to do that does not mean other parliaments around the world have just therefore abandoned the innovations and modernizations they put in place as a result of COVID-19.

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Ms. Lindsay Mathyssen (London—Fanshawe, NDP)

Jun/13/23 10:56:06 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, a couple of weeks ago, I was able to go back to my community. It is the second anniversary of the death of the Afzaal family, which has significantly changed my community in a lot of different ways. I was able to go. I was able to participate and be there for my community. I was able to be there with friends and family and share in that and try to be a leader in my community, as we are expected to do in this job, in the many facets of this job. I was also able to participate in question period that day and ask the minister a question that reflected the needs of my community, which had to do with Islamophobia and what the government was doing on Islamophobia. Could the member offer some additional comments as to why it is so important we can do both things with a hybrid Parliament system?

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Mr. Ryan Turnbull

Jun/13/23 10:57:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I do appreciate the member's comment, and it is exactly the point of this debate and why we need to continue hybrid provisions. It really is to make this place more humane and compassionate. That is what we heard at committee. As well, for members of Parliament to be able to balance their life, family and work responsibilities. I availed myself of hybrid last week when my father-in-law was in the intensive care unit and had to have a major procedure. I was able to go home and support my wife and daughter in their time of need. We heard this from many members of Parliament who have gone through family members either passing away or having issues in their riding they felt passionately about and needed to be there for.

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Mr. Kody Blois (Kings—Hants, Lib.)

Jun/13/23 10:58:08 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-234

Madam Speaker, as always, it is an immense privilege to be able to join the debate here tonight and bring the perspective of my constituents of Kings—Hants. To those who are still watching at home as we approach 11 o'clock eastern time, we are talking today about amending the Standing Orders. The Standing Orders are the guidelines or rules of how Parliament actually operates. Back when I was elected in this place, in 2019, I was a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed new member of Parliament. I had about 12 weeks. The member for Kingston and the Islands has some concern about the way I framed that. However, as a new member of Parliament, I was here, I was excited and I was finding my way around this place. Then, of course, the pandemic came. I never had the chance to come back in person until after the 2021 election. There was a large period of uncertainty. I remember having conversations with colleagues in March 2020, saying that we were going to go home for a couple of weeks and suspecting we would be back in April. That is not how it played out. Obviously we did not know the severity of what we were dealing with. When I think back to the 43rd Parliament, had we not adopted some of these provisions, I would not have had the ability to bring my voice to the institution that is the House of Commons and that is Parliament. It also gave reflection for all 338 members of Parliament in this place about how we could modernize the tools to make sure that we are effective representatives for our constituents here in this place. However, the conversation has to start with, what is the role of a member of Parliament? What do our constituents expect us to do? If I was to go survey the doorsteps in Kings—Hants, many would not necessarily know exactly what I do in Ottawa every day. They would know that I speak in this place at certain times. They may know that I am part of committees. They do not necessarily know the full scope. We certainly try to share information and talk about the work I am doing in a legislative sense, the priorities I am trying to encourage the government to take up, what the government is taking on, but there is a lot that goes into being a member of Parliament. Part of it is visibility. I represent a rural riding of nearly 5,000 square kilometres. Part of my role is being visible in my riding to have the conversations with my constituents so I can bring their perspective back to this place. There are parts of my riding that, frankly, it is very difficult to get to in a given calendar year. We sit in Parliament six months a year. I do not begrudge that reality. I think it is good. It is important that we have robust debate, that we have a democratic process through committees and through legislative means, but the reality is, with the size of the riding that I have, it is difficult to do. When we look at what the government House leader has tabled as a permanent change to the Standing Orders, it allows us to function, similar to what we have done post-pandemic, which is to allow there to be a virtual option for members of Parliament to use. I remember a year ago when we were having this conversation about the extension within a year, there were certainly concerns from the opposition bench about ministerial accountability and about making sure that members of Parliament are in this place. What I have observed in that year since then is, by and large, members of Parliament are here in the House. There are certain exceptions. We saw the member for Labrador, for example. She had a very moving S.O. 31 today. She had to go through a really difficult health challenge. We are proud of what she has done. Rightfully so, she took some time away from her role as a member of Parliament, but she would have had the ability to participate notwithstanding that her health required her to be in another part of the country. She could not have physically been in this place. We can look at the ways we could use the tools available to us. The member for Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan talked about the virtual voting tool. I agree with it. I have used it very sparingly, but there have been two instances in the last year where I have chosen to use the virtual option as a way to be able to participate in this place. Madam Speaker, I believe you were at the national caucus last year in New Brunswick and would know that part of the bargain with my wife, for me to join this place, was that we had to get a Bernese mountain dog. Sadly, at Christmastime 2022, we found out that our Bernese mountain dog had developed bone cancer. He sadly passed away early in 2023, around late February, early March. I ended up going home to spend time with my wife. I know it is not a child, but he was our fur baby, he was our guy. That same day that we were putting our dog down, Bill C-234, which is a really important piece of legislation that is now before the Senate, was up for debate. I went home to be with my family. I had the opportunity to still participate and give my perspective as the member of Parliament for Kings—Hants and to bring the perspective of my constituents to this place because of those virtual tools. I would not have had that ability had these rules not been in place. When we look at the whole, in terms of the balance between the work that members of Parliament have to do in Ottawa in terms of their legislative function in the House and in committees versus the role of being back there and in front of constituents, hearing the concerns and driving certain initiatives, whether on projects or case files, constituents want to see us at home. They want to see us being able to make things happen for our community. I do not think they are necessarily troubled if on an odd occasion a member of Parliament will use these tools. Therefore, I am in support of what the government House leader has put forward. What this House could consider in the days ahead is if we are concerned, whether the opposition or a majority of members of Parliament, about the use of these tools and whether they are being used in a way that is not bringing us together in the House in the way that it should. Look, it is pretty lively in any given question period when I sit in here. There is usually a pretty good quorum. There may be a few seats of members of Parliament who are not there, but even before these rules were in place there would have been instances where members of Parliament were travelling and were not able to be in the House physically. On the whole, there is merit to what is being discussed. It is a way for members of Parliament to be able to balance their rigid duties here in the House but also make sure that they are being true and honest, and not only to the constituency concerns but to family concerns. I had the opportunity to read Andrew Coyne's article in The Globe and Mail. Of course, he had suggested that this is not a great step, moving forward. My concern with his article is that he suggests that members of Parliament do not want to show up in this place. I want to be here because I agree with some of the comments that have been made tonight. We cannot replicate the ability to participate in a human-to-human interaction here in the House, to be able to go over and talk to a colleague across the way and to be able to pull aside a minister and have a conversation on something that matters. That still matters and if one wants to be an effective member of Parliament they will show up to this place. If they choose to use the virtual tools in a way that is not the way that they should be used, in terms of their never showing up to this place, well the opposition, the media and their own constituents will hold them to account and start asking questions as to why they are not in this place. Absent a reasonable excuse as to why a member may be using those, there are enough mechanisms for us to hold members of Parliament to account and the fact that they are here. Again, one was a family issue. The other was that I had a grandmother who was ill. Thankfully, she has come through that period. I wanted to go home. I wanted to be there in that moment. I would have not have had the opportunity to balance my parliamentary duties and also be a good grandson at that time. Let us not have this dichotomy where we suggest the only way to be a good member of Parliament is that we have to be physically in Ottawa for every single thing that we do in a parliamentary sense. The last thing I want to address is the provision that it would actually require committee chairs to chair the committee in person. I fundamentally agree with this. I have the privilege of serving as the chair of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. Any time I cannot be in Ottawa, I give way to my vice-chair, the hon. member for Foothills, because I know at the end of the day it is better to conduct a meeting when we can actually work alongside our clerk. There are a number of challenges in trying to be able to read a room and in trying to be able to facilitate a meeting when we are thousands of miles away. That is a reasonable compromise. My last suggestion would be that as we move forward in this place and we start to identify issues, we can come back and address them, similar to what was done on the committee chair piece and their being in the room. That is a reasonable compromise. Let us move forward. Let us continue to drive important changes to how our Parliament works.

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Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, CPC)

Jun/13/23 11:07:57 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I sympathize with some of the very human circumstances the member talks about. There are obviously things that, in different forms, all members of Parliament deal with. I take issue with the general assertion from a number of members that things are working well now. The government's premise seems to be that it has been doing this for years and everything is fine, so why not continue it? Even if relatively few members take the opportunity to speak using a hybrid system and use it in a limited way, the hybrid provisions are creating massive resource challenges that make it difficult for parliamentary committees to function in any way resembling the way they used to function. They are not able to set their own agendas or sit for longer periods of time when necessary. They are not able to control their use of time in order to move items forward. It makes it easier for members to delay committee proceedings if committees cannot sit for extended periods of time at will. That is the reality. I wonder if the member will acknowledge the existing problems and the need to get a handle on them before we move forward in a permanent way.

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Agendas

Mr. Kody Blois

Jun/13/23 11:09:14 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, one of my hon. colleagues in the NDP from Edmonton hit it right on the head. It is a bit ironic that the hon. member opposite is asking this question when his party has been involved in a lot of filibustering. If he wants to talk about resources, he should think about the ad nauseam delays at the finance committee. We just finally got our budget bill through. I sympathize with the member's point. If he feels as though committees do not have the ability to chart their own course, I think that is a conversation about trying to hire additional resources to support them. However, let us not compromise what he admitted was not necessarily a problem. Very few members of Parliament are utilizing the virtual provisions. It is not compromising his ability to hold this government to account. Let us hire more resources if he is concerned about committees, and maybe let us not filibuster.

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Mr. Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe (Lac-Saint-Jean, BQ)

Jun/13/23 11:10:10 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we need to have healthy debate in the House. This evening, we are having a healthy debate. Since we are parliamentarians who respect our democracy, we will continue to have this type of calm, healthy debate. Now, I am looking at what is happening today. This debate should have been held before the motion was moved. The member across the way gave us several examples to illustrate why we should adopt the motion on hybrid Parliament. In that case, why did the Liberals not explain, in the parameters of the motion, the situations where it would be appropriate to use the hybrid Parliament? For example, it could be for health reasons or family reasons. Before being elected to the House, I worked at a pulp and paper mill. I also worked crazy hours on set. I was paid a quarter of what we get paid here. The people watching us on television are telling us to do our work the way we used to. Those who have health problems or family problems can use the virtual model, but we need to do our job.

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Hybrid

Mr. Kody Blois

Jun/13/23 11:11:19 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would say a couple of different things. If we try to delineate every plausible rationale for why someone could use virtual, we would perhaps be too narrow in its application. Then this question would arise: What about this case? If there is a concern moving forward by a majority of members of Parliament, then we can start to put in parameters such as a certain number of days that could be used virtually, a certain proportion of a caucus that could be— An hon. member: Oh, oh! Mr. Kody Blois: I have the floor, Madam Speaker. I would ask my colleague to listen to my response. Parameters could be put around this. The member gave the examples of forestry and the film industry. I have great respect for other industries. We do very privileged work in this place that is different from when I used to build pallets at home in Nova Scotia, but the reality is that this should not prevent us from finding reasonable ways to make this place function better.

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Ms. Heather McPherson (Edmonton Strathcona, NDP)

Jun/13/23 11:12:18 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to compliment my colleague. He has a beautiful suit on today. One of the things he spoke about was making sure that people can participate in this Parliament. I think about representatives in the Yukon and representatives in rural and remote northern communities and how difficult it is for them. It is a very different reality than when we have, for example, people representing ridings in Ottawa. I think it is important that we make sure all of those constituents are equally represented. He brought up the idea that Canadians ultimately choose who represents them. That is the cornerstone of our democracy. People will still be able to vote if—

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