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Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:14:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I asked a question of the parliamentary secretary earlier and I want to get the minister's take on it as well. I looked at the website for Crown Indigenous Relations, which is his department, in the context of water legislation. It talks about the engagement approach, which includes “advancing development of a legislative proposal” with the Assembly of First Nations, “ongoing direct engagement with First Nations rights holders, Modern Treaty and Self Governing Nations” and “engaging provinces and territories”. What we heard earlier from the parliamentary secretary is that it almost seemed like that was an opportunity to fill out a form. In a statement from the FSIN today, it said: ...the first public draft released by Canada in February was developed in secret by Indigenous Services Canada without any direct input from First Nations, a fact that has been raised by the Assembly of First Nations and several regional First Nations organizations over the course of 2023. Can the minister maybe clarify a bit about how the consultation was done? Was there any going out and talking to people or was there just an online application where people got to participate in the process?

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:15:39 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I know Bill C-61 is not the subject of our conversation today, but it is one of the first co-developed pieces of legislation that has been introduced. It really stems from the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, or UNDRIP. In many ways it was co-developed, and there were a number of different elements to that. One of them was consultation, which included two sets of consultations. One was for the initial draft and the second was for an improved draft. Subsequent to that, there was a group that did work, and many of them spoke today. We had the Chiefs of Ontario and Grand Chief Glen Hare, for example, who spoke today, and others spoke about the work they did to co-develop. I am very proud of the fact that this was co-developed. I think we can take a lot of learning from here and apply it to other legislation we are developing and co-developing. I look forward to working with my colleague to improve this process.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:16:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon. minister for his comments. I know he spoke about Bill C-61, but here is the thing: It is 2023 and the government is patting itself on the back because we do not have that many more boil water advisories to deal with. There are 26. It is abhorrent. The normalization of violating the rights of indigenous people is so accepted in Canada and by the government that we are bragging that there are still 26 boil water advisories. I find this shocking. What we are actually here to talk about is the sunsetting of $7.6 billion in programs to Indigenous Services Canada. We know that, under the current situation, this is costing people's lives. I have had the pleasure of working a lot with the minister around the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls, two-spirit people and gender-diverse folks, and some of these cuts will make the difference between somebody living or not. Does my hon. colleague agree with me that these cuts are reckless, knowing that most of these programs are underfunded? Is he committed to doing whatever he needs to do to make sure that does not happen?

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:18:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, at the outset, let me just deal with the issue of water. The fact that any Canadian parliamentarian can stand up and still say we have 26 boil water advisories, where communities do not have access to clean drinking water, is deeply embarrassing and deeply hurtful. I think it is deeply problematic. However, the fact is that there has been incredible progress, progress based on what indigenous people, first nations people, have asked for. It is no longer about the federal government procuring 150 systems and saying, let us implement these across Ontario or another region. It is about ensuring that there is local ability, procurement and self-determination over what that system looks like. It is one of the reasons we are here today. There are still 26 to go, and I am confident that we will get to the end point. On the issue of sunsetting some of the programs, it is important to recognize that many of our programs are multi-year, whether it is three or five years. Particularly with COVID, we had even longer periods of programming that came in that could sunset. Collectively speaking, our government has been consistently renewing and re-establishing programs based on evolving needs. We will not, under any circumstances, compromise the progress we have made with Indigenous Services. We will continue to ensure that every young person in indigenous communities is supported. The services that ISC provides are so critical. We realize that, and we will continue to ensure that funding is sustained and people are supported throughout Canada in order—

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The Deputy Chair

Dec/11/23 9:20:16 p.m.
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We do have to allow for other questions. I have been trying to get the hon. minister's attention. Questions and comments, the hon. member for Châteauguay—Lacolle.

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Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:20:24 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I listened with great interest to the speech by the hon. minister. I am trying to understand something. I have seen Auditor General reports over the years since my time here in 2015, and it was a horrendous situation. In fact, the late Auditor General, Michael Ferguson, made it his special mission to bring attention to this situation. How did we get to that place in 2015 when it was just a horrific state of affairs? What was the major change, in his opinion, that brought us at least to a better place? We are not in a perfect place, but at least we are in a better place.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:21:19 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it is simplistic sometimes to say there is one particular incident that led us to this place. I think there were successive governments that underfunded Indigenous Services. When we took office in 2015, one of the most important aspects of the Prime Minister's commitment and our mandate was to ensure that we walk the path of reconciliation, which means two things. One is to close the gaps, and I would argue it is about eliminating the gaps. When an indigenous child and a non-indigenous child are born today, they should have the same opportunities and the same outcomes, regardless of who they are. I think that is something we still need to work harder at. I believe that is the path we are on. The second piece is the work that I do with long-term reconciliation, making sure that self-determination is at the core of the work that we are doing. It is no longer an Ottawa-driven approach. It is an approach that is driven by communities based on their needs, based on their values, and the role of the federal government is to support those initiatives. I want to thank my friend for that question, and I look forward to continuing on this path toward reconciliation.

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Mr. Gary Vidal

Dec/11/23 9:22:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I did not know I was going to get a second opportunity. In four years, the department has grown from 4,200 full-time employees to 7,070. In 2021-22, despite only reaching 17% of the departmental targets it set for itself, 94.6 of the employees at the executive level or above at ISC received performance pay. Would the minister agree that the significant disconnect between individual performance and organizational outcomes is a big reason we are having these conversations today? We need to hold somebody accountable and I wonder if he agrees.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:23:35 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am not going to speak for ISC, but I can tell the member that we have a whole-of-government approach when it comes to reconciliation. As I indicated earlier, the need to close the gap is essential, and the work we have been doing over the last eight years is toward that goal. Whether with respect to the first nations and Inuit health branch, implementing Jordan's principle or the Indigenous Languages Act, just name the program, we have been investing to ensure that we close the gaps. There is still work to do. I look forward, as a government, to not only doing the work but also ensuring that we are at a place where we are no longer having this debate. It is about moving forward on a true path to reconciliation.

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Mr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:24:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Elgin—Middlesex—London. I want to spend my time in tonight's debate talking especially about the Auditor General's report “Emergency Management in First Nations Communities”, which came out last year. I have been involved in public accounts off and on for the eight years I have been in this place, and I have seen some eye-wateringly incompetent services or performances by the government. It is almost as if the various ministers are in competition to see who can be the most inept. There have been several contenders for the award. The Auditor General did a housing study in which it was discovered that the government did not even know whom it was housing, how many people it was housing or how many housing units were getting built, despite billions of dollars being spent, with Infrastructure Canada blaming CMHC for the failures, and vice versa, literally. However, not to worry; executives at Infrastructure Canada and CMHC all still got full bonuses despite the failure. Veterans Affairs was spending money on new programs to alleviate the wait-lists, with no ability to track whether the backlogs had improved or not. Here is a spoiler alert: They had not improved, and had actually gotten worse every year since 2015. However, not to worry; executives all received performance bonuses. The CRA ignored the Auditor General's warnings about over $27 billion of ineligible funding going out to corporations that should not have received the money. One would think that, with so many incompetent departments, perhaps the CRA or another organization would come out as the winner. However, not to worry; along came Indigenous Services and said it would take the gold medal. The report is specifically about the emergency management of first nations communities, probably the very worst Auditor General's report I have read, period. The department happily spent three and a half times more on responding to crises than on preventive measures. It spent about $646 million responding to emergencies, but only $182 million on preparing for emergencies or on adaptation. Former auditor general Sheila Fraser, when reviewing this issue long ago, said the situation was “unacceptable”. Years later, Michael Ferguson did the same audit on the same issue, and said it was “beyond unacceptable”. Years after that, current Auditor General Hogan now says that we are decades into the failure to serve indigenous people. Her exact words are, “words are not driving change”. This is a problem we see with the government; it is big on announcements but zero on delivery. For the needed infrastructure for first nations, the dedicated fund's annual amount is $12 million. There are 112 identified projects that are not funded yet, such as fixing dams, dikes and flood plains. I am sure the government will say not to worry; it is getting to them. Over two-thirds of them are over five years old, and 4% of them are over a decade old. Only $291 million is required to address all 112 projects. To put it in perspective, in the last two years alone, the government has paid $88 million directly to Tesla to subsidize wealthy people to buy electric cars, but $12 million a year is dedicated for infrastructure in first nations communities. We need actions, not words. We need a change of government for this.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:29:11 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I not only have the fortune of sitting with the member on the public accounts committee and share a city, but I also have the fortune to ask the member an important question. When we studied the audit presented by the Auditor General in relation to emergency management, we heard the deputy minister, who was invited at that time, admit the fact that there was critical underfunding for the preparedness of indigenous nations in direct relation to how prepared they were for natural disasters. As a matter of fact, the deputy minister even confirmed that she told the minister to spend more money. What did the minister do? She denied it. I would ask the member to speak to the fact that the deputy minister themself seems to be doing what is right, but the minister is not. Can he explain why?

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Mr. Kelly McCauley

Dec/11/23 9:30:05 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the point he overlooked mentioning is that we actually had to haul the minister into the public accounts committee to discuss the horrible report. I think that was only the third time in the past 100 years that this has been done. Another thing the member forgot to bring up, and he brought up a lot of excellent points, is that the ministry blamed first nations for a lot of these problems. I remember being aghast. This is the first time we have actually written, in a dissenting report, a call for the deputy ministers, who have been negligent, to be terminated. I still believe that the deputy ministers who have so failed on this report should lose their jobs over this, and that the minister should resign over it as well. It has been disgraceful. There is $12 million in permanent money for infrastructure every year, and $88 million for Tesla. We asked the minister whether there was money in the estimates for addressing this, and her comment was, “Well, aren't you going to vote for us in the budget, then?” It has nothing to do with supporting the budget. There was no money in the estimates, and it is not in the departmental plans either to address this tragedy.

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Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:31:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I think we almost have quorum here for public accounts, and we could almost hold a meeting here right now. It is an excellent committee because we certainly have the occasion to learn a considerable amount about a number of different departments. As I mentioned earlier, it was the late Michael Ferguson who really drew the attention of our committee to the chronic underfunding and chronic neglect of the affairs of indigenous peoples. This was, as the minister just said in his remarks, over a number of successive governments. Really, it is not the time and place to be nitpicking about that, but rather we should be talking about what we are going to do in the future. I am very happy to hear that my hon. colleague from across the way would support an actual increase in funding of infrastructure, so we are going to hold him to that. It will be good to see him voting in that manner in the future. I would like to ask the member whether he would like to comment, in just a high-level approach, on whether it is more efficient for a ministry to come in and basically do for first nations in a very— An hon. member: Paternalistic. —paternalistic way, thank you, or, for first nations communities, for there to be a co-operative and organic approach to actually solving this problem in a sustainable way.

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Mr. Kelly McCauley

Dec/11/23 9:33:12 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, since we have so many members from public accounts, I would like to table a motion. My colleague from the Liberal side who serves on public accounts with us brought up doing these things with first nations. These projects that have been identified for five years and 10 years were developed in conjunction with the first nations. The 112 projects that have been approved in conjunction with first nations and identified by first nations have not been funded yet. I want to get back to the $12 million a year in permanent funding. The government built a luxury barn for the Governor General for $8 million, yet has only $4 million more for all of these identified projects. The system is broken. I do not blame the member across the way, but I do blame the government for not addressing these issues and trying to politicize them instead of addressing them.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:34:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is great to be participating in this debate tonight. We learned so much about the important issues that first nations and indigenous people are bringing forward, so I would like to thank everybody who has participated. I think we need a lot more of that when it comes to working toward reconciliation. Specifically looking at Indigenous Services and looking at the PBO report and the executive summary, it clearly indicated that the financial resources allocated to providing indigenous services had increased significantly. Look at the money that is being spent. The department had increased its plan of spending from $9.3 billion in 2018-19 to $39.6 billion in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Authorities for 2022-23 were $44.8 billion. I think this is really important because investing money is important. What we also saw was an increase in the number of full-time employees. It went from 4,200 to 7,200. When we talk about indigenous services, I want to ensure that we are actually not talking about administration but about water, that we are actually talking about the things that are needed for reserves and those people off reserves. I am taking this opportunity to speak about things that really matter to me as well, not just the boil water advisories. People who have been in this place have shared a lot with me. I would be remiss if I did not talk about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, what I have learned and the importance of the red dress alert; the importance of making sure that, if a young indigenous woman or girl goes missing, we know. We must work together to ensure that this gets done. It is going to take all members but we need to get on board to ensure this amber-like alert is there for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. That is something we must continue to advocate for and continue to work for. Just moments ago, I was asking about this. If we want to know about indigenous issues or want to talk about indigenous issues, we need to talk to people who know the facts, the people who are on the ground. People provide me with information when I want to talk about Nunavut. I just learned the most heartbreaking information about the increased rate of suicides. If anyone wants to throw a number out there, they would be disgusted because it would be so low. The rate of suicide for those people who are indigenous or Inuit is 25 times that of Canadians. Come on, everyone, what is so wrong with that? When we look at other issues we know that there has been an increase here or there, but 25 times that of Canadians is just appalling. To those people in Nunavut, we must do all that we can to ensure that services are there for them. We know that it is not just about the services, but it is years and years of history, of perhaps not having the infrastructure. I know that they have been all named in this place. I do not want to miss anything, so I do not want to list them all off tonight because it is very important. If we are working toward reconciliation, we need to do more about this. We cannot let people die. That is exactly what we are doing on our watch. That is not good enough. We talk a lot at the status of women committee about mental health. One of the greatest challenges is getting mental health services. Imagine if there were no hospital 20 minutes up the road, but instead people had to jump on maybe a propellor, maybe a boat or something like that. Where do people get their mental health services? Those are the questions being asked by so many of the people living in indigenous areas, who are living in those rural and remote areas. We could do better and we should be doing better. The government has spent so much money and we have seen no results. It has hired so many people with, once again, fewer results. It has increased bonuses with even fewer results. It shuffles money from one place to another. Please, start getting it right. Indigenous people deserve it.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:39:09 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I know that when it comes to indigenous services from the federal government, it can feel like a very complex issue, given all the different topics that we have to discuss, be it infrastructure, programs or staffing. No matter what we have seen in all past governments and the current one, it is not necessarily the number of staff in the bureaucracy but the unwillingness of the bureaucracy to devolve decision-making back to first nations, Métis and Inuit that is one of the harshest impacts. Therefore, when it comes to reconciliation, I know how important it is that, when decision-making is being given back to indigenous peoples, the devolution requires resources that allow indigenous peoples to make decisions about mental health care and about cultural care. I wonder if the member agrees that when we are ensuring that indigenous peoples are making their own decisions, equivalent resources must be provided so that they can act on those decisions.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:40:50 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am looking at my little sticky note that says “her voice”, and her voice is that member for Nunavut's voice. We cannot move forward unless there is reconciliation and we cannot move forward unless indigenous people, Inuit people and Métis people are at the table. Yes, of course this comes with resources. Things do cost money, but, when it comes to spending money, I am such a mother. It is about spending money wisely, and I just fear. I have watched the current government explode with its pocketbooks, but it just does not get us anywhere. I really appreciate the question, but money needs to be spent wisely.

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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:41:31 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-61

Mr. Chair, I was listening to the member's speech. I want to, first of all, thank the NDP for initiating this take-note debate today. Given where we are in terms of access to water and clean water, today was a momentous day with the tabling of legislation in this House. Bill C-61 talks about clean drinking water for generations to come. It talks about ensuring that first nations, Inuit and Métis communities have the tools to control water systems and protect the lakes and rivers that they source their water from. It commits investments, ensuring that we do not return to Harper-era cuts, to freshwater systems. It is based on years of consultations and is the process of a co-developed system. I wonder if the member opposite could comment upon the bill that was tabled today and how it turns the page on the legacy of the previous Conservative government.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:42:21 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, from the movie Jerry Maguire, the member had me at clean water. It is that simple. However, let us be honest here. We can sit there and talk about clean water, but we have to get the job done. I know that there has been money announced for Oneida Nation in my region of London, Ontario, but we still know that there is so much more to be done. In 2015, the current government ran with a plan to make sure that there was water on all first nations. I am sorry, but it has been eight years and we are still seeing a lot of lack.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:42:58 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her very compassionate comments. The speaker before my colleague talked about driving change and she alluded to some of that in her comments as well. When 99.2% of the executives at level 3 and above, the top 50 executives in the department, are getting performance bonuses, I wonder about a change in the system. How can we measure performance pay, so that we are not paying bonuses to people who are not getting the job done and the organizational goals are not being met and the results are not being met? I wonder if my colleague would like to comment on how actually creating some accountability in the top levels of the department, right up to the minister, might actually facilitate the driving of change, so that the outcomes and the results for indigenous people across our country are improved.

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