SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Dec/11/23 9:20:16 p.m.
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We do have to allow for other questions. I have been trying to get the hon. minister's attention. Questions and comments, the hon. member for Châteauguay—Lacolle.

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Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:20:24 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I listened with great interest to the speech by the hon. minister. I am trying to understand something. I have seen Auditor General reports over the years since my time here in 2015, and it was a horrendous situation. In fact, the late Auditor General, Michael Ferguson, made it his special mission to bring attention to this situation. How did we get to that place in 2015 when it was just a horrific state of affairs? What was the major change, in his opinion, that brought us at least to a better place? We are not in a perfect place, but at least we are in a better place.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:21:19 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it is simplistic sometimes to say there is one particular incident that led us to this place. I think there were successive governments that underfunded Indigenous Services. When we took office in 2015, one of the most important aspects of the Prime Minister's commitment and our mandate was to ensure that we walk the path of reconciliation, which means two things. One is to close the gaps, and I would argue it is about eliminating the gaps. When an indigenous child and a non-indigenous child are born today, they should have the same opportunities and the same outcomes, regardless of who they are. I think that is something we still need to work harder at. I believe that is the path we are on. The second piece is the work that I do with long-term reconciliation, making sure that self-determination is at the core of the work that we are doing. It is no longer an Ottawa-driven approach. It is an approach that is driven by communities based on their needs, based on their values, and the role of the federal government is to support those initiatives. I want to thank my friend for that question, and I look forward to continuing on this path toward reconciliation.

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Mr. Gary Vidal

Dec/11/23 9:22:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I did not know I was going to get a second opportunity. In four years, the department has grown from 4,200 full-time employees to 7,070. In 2021-22, despite only reaching 17% of the departmental targets it set for itself, 94.6 of the employees at the executive level or above at ISC received performance pay. Would the minister agree that the significant disconnect between individual performance and organizational outcomes is a big reason we are having these conversations today? We need to hold somebody accountable and I wonder if he agrees.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree

Dec/11/23 9:23:35 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am not going to speak for ISC, but I can tell the member that we have a whole-of-government approach when it comes to reconciliation. As I indicated earlier, the need to close the gap is essential, and the work we have been doing over the last eight years is toward that goal. Whether with respect to the first nations and Inuit health branch, implementing Jordan's principle or the Indigenous Languages Act, just name the program, we have been investing to ensure that we close the gaps. There is still work to do. I look forward, as a government, to not only doing the work but also ensuring that we are at a place where we are no longer having this debate. It is about moving forward on a true path to reconciliation.

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Mr. Kelly McCauley (Edmonton West, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:24:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague from Elgin—Middlesex—London. I want to spend my time in tonight's debate talking especially about the Auditor General's report “Emergency Management in First Nations Communities”, which came out last year. I have been involved in public accounts off and on for the eight years I have been in this place, and I have seen some eye-wateringly incompetent services or performances by the government. It is almost as if the various ministers are in competition to see who can be the most inept. There have been several contenders for the award. The Auditor General did a housing study in which it was discovered that the government did not even know whom it was housing, how many people it was housing or how many housing units were getting built, despite billions of dollars being spent, with Infrastructure Canada blaming CMHC for the failures, and vice versa, literally. However, not to worry; executives at Infrastructure Canada and CMHC all still got full bonuses despite the failure. Veterans Affairs was spending money on new programs to alleviate the wait-lists, with no ability to track whether the backlogs had improved or not. Here is a spoiler alert: They had not improved, and had actually gotten worse every year since 2015. However, not to worry; executives all received performance bonuses. The CRA ignored the Auditor General's warnings about over $27 billion of ineligible funding going out to corporations that should not have received the money. One would think that, with so many incompetent departments, perhaps the CRA or another organization would come out as the winner. However, not to worry; along came Indigenous Services and said it would take the gold medal. The report is specifically about the emergency management of first nations communities, probably the very worst Auditor General's report I have read, period. The department happily spent three and a half times more on responding to crises than on preventive measures. It spent about $646 million responding to emergencies, but only $182 million on preparing for emergencies or on adaptation. Former auditor general Sheila Fraser, when reviewing this issue long ago, said the situation was “unacceptable”. Years later, Michael Ferguson did the same audit on the same issue, and said it was “beyond unacceptable”. Years after that, current Auditor General Hogan now says that we are decades into the failure to serve indigenous people. Her exact words are, “words are not driving change”. This is a problem we see with the government; it is big on announcements but zero on delivery. For the needed infrastructure for first nations, the dedicated fund's annual amount is $12 million. There are 112 identified projects that are not funded yet, such as fixing dams, dikes and flood plains. I am sure the government will say not to worry; it is getting to them. Over two-thirds of them are over five years old, and 4% of them are over a decade old. Only $291 million is required to address all 112 projects. To put it in perspective, in the last two years alone, the government has paid $88 million directly to Tesla to subsidize wealthy people to buy electric cars, but $12 million a year is dedicated for infrastructure in first nations communities. We need actions, not words. We need a change of government for this.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:29:11 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I not only have the fortune of sitting with the member on the public accounts committee and share a city, but I also have the fortune to ask the member an important question. When we studied the audit presented by the Auditor General in relation to emergency management, we heard the deputy minister, who was invited at that time, admit the fact that there was critical underfunding for the preparedness of indigenous nations in direct relation to how prepared they were for natural disasters. As a matter of fact, the deputy minister even confirmed that she told the minister to spend more money. What did the minister do? She denied it. I would ask the member to speak to the fact that the deputy minister themself seems to be doing what is right, but the minister is not. Can he explain why?

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Mr. Kelly McCauley

Dec/11/23 9:30:05 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the point he overlooked mentioning is that we actually had to haul the minister into the public accounts committee to discuss the horrible report. I think that was only the third time in the past 100 years that this has been done. Another thing the member forgot to bring up, and he brought up a lot of excellent points, is that the ministry blamed first nations for a lot of these problems. I remember being aghast. This is the first time we have actually written, in a dissenting report, a call for the deputy ministers, who have been negligent, to be terminated. I still believe that the deputy ministers who have so failed on this report should lose their jobs over this, and that the minister should resign over it as well. It has been disgraceful. There is $12 million in permanent money for infrastructure every year, and $88 million for Tesla. We asked the minister whether there was money in the estimates for addressing this, and her comment was, “Well, aren't you going to vote for us in the budget, then?” It has nothing to do with supporting the budget. There was no money in the estimates, and it is not in the departmental plans either to address this tragedy.

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Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:31:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I think we almost have quorum here for public accounts, and we could almost hold a meeting here right now. It is an excellent committee because we certainly have the occasion to learn a considerable amount about a number of different departments. As I mentioned earlier, it was the late Michael Ferguson who really drew the attention of our committee to the chronic underfunding and chronic neglect of the affairs of indigenous peoples. This was, as the minister just said in his remarks, over a number of successive governments. Really, it is not the time and place to be nitpicking about that, but rather we should be talking about what we are going to do in the future. I am very happy to hear that my hon. colleague from across the way would support an actual increase in funding of infrastructure, so we are going to hold him to that. It will be good to see him voting in that manner in the future. I would like to ask the member whether he would like to comment, in just a high-level approach, on whether it is more efficient for a ministry to come in and basically do for first nations in a very— An hon. member: Paternalistic. —paternalistic way, thank you, or, for first nations communities, for there to be a co-operative and organic approach to actually solving this problem in a sustainable way.

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Mr. Kelly McCauley

Dec/11/23 9:33:12 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, since we have so many members from public accounts, I would like to table a motion. My colleague from the Liberal side who serves on public accounts with us brought up doing these things with first nations. These projects that have been identified for five years and 10 years were developed in conjunction with the first nations. The 112 projects that have been approved in conjunction with first nations and identified by first nations have not been funded yet. I want to get back to the $12 million a year in permanent funding. The government built a luxury barn for the Governor General for $8 million, yet has only $4 million more for all of these identified projects. The system is broken. I do not blame the member across the way, but I do blame the government for not addressing these issues and trying to politicize them instead of addressing them.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:34:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is great to be participating in this debate tonight. We learned so much about the important issues that first nations and indigenous people are bringing forward, so I would like to thank everybody who has participated. I think we need a lot more of that when it comes to working toward reconciliation. Specifically looking at Indigenous Services and looking at the PBO report and the executive summary, it clearly indicated that the financial resources allocated to providing indigenous services had increased significantly. Look at the money that is being spent. The department had increased its plan of spending from $9.3 billion in 2018-19 to $39.6 billion in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Authorities for 2022-23 were $44.8 billion. I think this is really important because investing money is important. What we also saw was an increase in the number of full-time employees. It went from 4,200 to 7,200. When we talk about indigenous services, I want to ensure that we are actually not talking about administration but about water, that we are actually talking about the things that are needed for reserves and those people off reserves. I am taking this opportunity to speak about things that really matter to me as well, not just the boil water advisories. People who have been in this place have shared a lot with me. I would be remiss if I did not talk about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, what I have learned and the importance of the red dress alert; the importance of making sure that, if a young indigenous woman or girl goes missing, we know. We must work together to ensure that this gets done. It is going to take all members but we need to get on board to ensure this amber-like alert is there for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. That is something we must continue to advocate for and continue to work for. Just moments ago, I was asking about this. If we want to know about indigenous issues or want to talk about indigenous issues, we need to talk to people who know the facts, the people who are on the ground. People provide me with information when I want to talk about Nunavut. I just learned the most heartbreaking information about the increased rate of suicides. If anyone wants to throw a number out there, they would be disgusted because it would be so low. The rate of suicide for those people who are indigenous or Inuit is 25 times that of Canadians. Come on, everyone, what is so wrong with that? When we look at other issues we know that there has been an increase here or there, but 25 times that of Canadians is just appalling. To those people in Nunavut, we must do all that we can to ensure that services are there for them. We know that it is not just about the services, but it is years and years of history, of perhaps not having the infrastructure. I know that they have been all named in this place. I do not want to miss anything, so I do not want to list them all off tonight because it is very important. If we are working toward reconciliation, we need to do more about this. We cannot let people die. That is exactly what we are doing on our watch. That is not good enough. We talk a lot at the status of women committee about mental health. One of the greatest challenges is getting mental health services. Imagine if there were no hospital 20 minutes up the road, but instead people had to jump on maybe a propellor, maybe a boat or something like that. Where do people get their mental health services? Those are the questions being asked by so many of the people living in indigenous areas, who are living in those rural and remote areas. We could do better and we should be doing better. The government has spent so much money and we have seen no results. It has hired so many people with, once again, fewer results. It has increased bonuses with even fewer results. It shuffles money from one place to another. Please, start getting it right. Indigenous people deserve it.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:39:09 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I know that when it comes to indigenous services from the federal government, it can feel like a very complex issue, given all the different topics that we have to discuss, be it infrastructure, programs or staffing. No matter what we have seen in all past governments and the current one, it is not necessarily the number of staff in the bureaucracy but the unwillingness of the bureaucracy to devolve decision-making back to first nations, Métis and Inuit that is one of the harshest impacts. Therefore, when it comes to reconciliation, I know how important it is that, when decision-making is being given back to indigenous peoples, the devolution requires resources that allow indigenous peoples to make decisions about mental health care and about cultural care. I wonder if the member agrees that when we are ensuring that indigenous peoples are making their own decisions, equivalent resources must be provided so that they can act on those decisions.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:40:50 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am looking at my little sticky note that says “her voice”, and her voice is that member for Nunavut's voice. We cannot move forward unless there is reconciliation and we cannot move forward unless indigenous people, Inuit people and Métis people are at the table. Yes, of course this comes with resources. Things do cost money, but, when it comes to spending money, I am such a mother. It is about spending money wisely, and I just fear. I have watched the current government explode with its pocketbooks, but it just does not get us anywhere. I really appreciate the question, but money needs to be spent wisely.

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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:41:31 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-61

Mr. Chair, I was listening to the member's speech. I want to, first of all, thank the NDP for initiating this take-note debate today. Given where we are in terms of access to water and clean water, today was a momentous day with the tabling of legislation in this House. Bill C-61 talks about clean drinking water for generations to come. It talks about ensuring that first nations, Inuit and Métis communities have the tools to control water systems and protect the lakes and rivers that they source their water from. It commits investments, ensuring that we do not return to Harper-era cuts, to freshwater systems. It is based on years of consultations and is the process of a co-developed system. I wonder if the member opposite could comment upon the bill that was tabled today and how it turns the page on the legacy of the previous Conservative government.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:42:21 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, from the movie Jerry Maguire, the member had me at clean water. It is that simple. However, let us be honest here. We can sit there and talk about clean water, but we have to get the job done. I know that there has been money announced for Oneida Nation in my region of London, Ontario, but we still know that there is so much more to be done. In 2015, the current government ran with a plan to make sure that there was water on all first nations. I am sorry, but it has been eight years and we are still seeing a lot of lack.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:42:58 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her very compassionate comments. The speaker before my colleague talked about driving change and she alluded to some of that in her comments as well. When 99.2% of the executives at level 3 and above, the top 50 executives in the department, are getting performance bonuses, I wonder about a change in the system. How can we measure performance pay, so that we are not paying bonuses to people who are not getting the job done and the organizational goals are not being met and the results are not being met? I wonder if my colleague would like to comment on how actually creating some accountability in the top levels of the department, right up to the minister, might actually facilitate the driving of change, so that the outcomes and the results for indigenous people across our country are improved.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:43:55 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, part of my concern is with respect to accountability and the current Liberal government. We have not seen the two go along hand in hand for a long time. Absolutely, we need to have that accountability. We need to move forward with first nations. Unfortunately, I just know that with the current government we have not seen that accountability.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:44:21 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-262 Bill C-249

Uqaqtittiji, I will be splitting my time with the member for Winnipeg Centre. I acknowledge all of the work that has been done by the New Democrats for indigenous rights, now and before my time. Jordan's principle emerged out of the work of former MP Jean Crowder's Motion No. 296. This motion was followed by Bill C-249 tabled by former NDP MP Pat Martin in 2008. Both called on the government to immediately adopt a child first principle based on Jordan's principle. Jordan's principle is now one of the most important programs run by the federal government to uphold its obligations to indigenous children, thanks to the NDP. Bill C-262, introduced by former NDP MP Romeo Saganash in 2016 finally forced the breakthrough that led to the government passing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act in 2021. New Democrats fought for investments in the last budget, and we secured $4 billion over seven years for the for indigenous, by indigenous housing program. From the beginning, I knew this amount was not enough. Much more investment is needed. The NDP agreed to the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy, knowing it could make a dent in the current situation. If the NDP did not fight, we would not have gotten anything for housing. When the Liberals and Conservatives will not step up, New Democrats do. Last week, the Conservatives voted against the supplementary estimates, which included investments for Indigenous Services Canada at $6.8 billion and investments to Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada at $3.2 billion. These total over $10 billion in departmental funding that indigenous peoples rely on, which the Conservatives voted to deny. As for the Liberals, they are not much better. We have heard from the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council that there are massive backlogs at Indigenous Services Canada for issuing status to registrants. This leaves infants waiting 18 to 24 months to get their health benefits. This is absolutely unacceptable. We hear about the huge backlogs to address Jordan's principle issues. We hear about the backlogs to address payments for services through the non-insured health benefits program. We have heard that Indigenous Services Canada is changing funding formulas for education without even talking to indigenous communities. Indigenous Services Canada set a goal of 2030 to eliminate the infrastructure gap, but they have no hope of achieving that at current investment levels, as it is a $349.2-billion first nations infrastructure gap. Indigenous peoples have offered solutions, but they are consistently ignored. Not only are they making cuts to investments to improve the well-being of indigenous peoples, they are planning to cut staff in their department. According to their website, they anticipate cutting staff by 1,000. Imagine how much worse these backlogs will be. They will keep indigenous peoples marginalized. Grassy Narrows is still waiting for its mercury care facility, despite repeated assurances from the Liberal government that it would be built. Tataskweyak Cree Nation in Manitoba had students with no school to go to as the school remained closed because it had no heat. It is still waiting for a new school after their roof caved in last month. That school, when it was built originally, was already overcrowded. There are many more examples across the country. The Liberals love announcements and photo ops, but they disappear when it is time to actually flow the funds that indigenous peoples need. The urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy is one such example. It was announced in 2022, and it was supposed to be released in 2023. It is now December 2023, and we have not seen the release of those funds.

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All Topics

Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:49:30 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank my hon. colleague, the member for Nunavut. She is a powerhouse not only here in this place but also for indigenous people right across the country. She made a particularly important intervention in relation to the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing fund, which she has been a champion for. However, there is no question that there have been delays. Can the member elaborate on ways the government could, through her advice, ensure this program hits the ground and supports the communities most in need?

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Ms. Lori Idlout

Dec/11/23 9:50:03 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I thank the member for his ongoing support. We were both elected at the same time. I also very much appreciate the great work of the MP for Vancouver East, who has been a great leader in ensuring that these funds eventually get released. I think the solution is simple. When it comes to the NDP pushing for these funds to be released, the government should just do it and stop giving us excuses for not delivering them. When it makes promises to disburse those funds, it should make sure that it works with indigenous peoples to get them released, because they know what they are doing. They will make sure the funds are spent with accountability and that indigenous people get housed.

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