SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Dec/11/23 9:30:05 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the point he overlooked mentioning is that we actually had to haul the minister into the public accounts committee to discuss the horrible report. I think that was only the third time in the past 100 years that this has been done. Another thing the member forgot to bring up, and he brought up a lot of excellent points, is that the ministry blamed first nations for a lot of these problems. I remember being aghast. This is the first time we have actually written, in a dissenting report, a call for the deputy ministers, who have been negligent, to be terminated. I still believe that the deputy ministers who have so failed on this report should lose their jobs over this, and that the minister should resign over it as well. It has been disgraceful. There is $12 million in permanent money for infrastructure every year, and $88 million for Tesla. We asked the minister whether there was money in the estimates for addressing this, and her comment was, “Well, aren't you going to vote for us in the budget, then?” It has nothing to do with supporting the budget. There was no money in the estimates, and it is not in the departmental plans either to address this tragedy.

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Mrs. Brenda Shanahan (Châteauguay—Lacolle, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:31:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I think we almost have quorum here for public accounts, and we could almost hold a meeting here right now. It is an excellent committee because we certainly have the occasion to learn a considerable amount about a number of different departments. As I mentioned earlier, it was the late Michael Ferguson who really drew the attention of our committee to the chronic underfunding and chronic neglect of the affairs of indigenous peoples. This was, as the minister just said in his remarks, over a number of successive governments. Really, it is not the time and place to be nitpicking about that, but rather we should be talking about what we are going to do in the future. I am very happy to hear that my hon. colleague from across the way would support an actual increase in funding of infrastructure, so we are going to hold him to that. It will be good to see him voting in that manner in the future. I would like to ask the member whether he would like to comment, in just a high-level approach, on whether it is more efficient for a ministry to come in and basically do for first nations in a very— An hon. member: Paternalistic. —paternalistic way, thank you, or, for first nations communities, for there to be a co-operative and organic approach to actually solving this problem in a sustainable way.

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Mr. Kelly McCauley

Dec/11/23 9:33:12 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, since we have so many members from public accounts, I would like to table a motion. My colleague from the Liberal side who serves on public accounts with us brought up doing these things with first nations. These projects that have been identified for five years and 10 years were developed in conjunction with the first nations. The 112 projects that have been approved in conjunction with first nations and identified by first nations have not been funded yet. I want to get back to the $12 million a year in permanent funding. The government built a luxury barn for the Governor General for $8 million, yet has only $4 million more for all of these identified projects. The system is broken. I do not blame the member across the way, but I do blame the government for not addressing these issues and trying to politicize them instead of addressing them.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio (Elgin—Middlesex—London, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:34:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is great to be participating in this debate tonight. We learned so much about the important issues that first nations and indigenous people are bringing forward, so I would like to thank everybody who has participated. I think we need a lot more of that when it comes to working toward reconciliation. Specifically looking at Indigenous Services and looking at the PBO report and the executive summary, it clearly indicated that the financial resources allocated to providing indigenous services had increased significantly. Look at the money that is being spent. The department had increased its plan of spending from $9.3 billion in 2018-19 to $39.6 billion in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Authorities for 2022-23 were $44.8 billion. I think this is really important because investing money is important. What we also saw was an increase in the number of full-time employees. It went from 4,200 to 7,200. When we talk about indigenous services, I want to ensure that we are actually not talking about administration but about water, that we are actually talking about the things that are needed for reserves and those people off reserves. I am taking this opportunity to speak about things that really matter to me as well, not just the boil water advisories. People who have been in this place have shared a lot with me. I would be remiss if I did not talk about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, what I have learned and the importance of the red dress alert; the importance of making sure that, if a young indigenous woman or girl goes missing, we know. We must work together to ensure that this gets done. It is going to take all members but we need to get on board to ensure this amber-like alert is there for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. That is something we must continue to advocate for and continue to work for. Just moments ago, I was asking about this. If we want to know about indigenous issues or want to talk about indigenous issues, we need to talk to people who know the facts, the people who are on the ground. People provide me with information when I want to talk about Nunavut. I just learned the most heartbreaking information about the increased rate of suicides. If anyone wants to throw a number out there, they would be disgusted because it would be so low. The rate of suicide for those people who are indigenous or Inuit is 25 times that of Canadians. Come on, everyone, what is so wrong with that? When we look at other issues we know that there has been an increase here or there, but 25 times that of Canadians is just appalling. To those people in Nunavut, we must do all that we can to ensure that services are there for them. We know that it is not just about the services, but it is years and years of history, of perhaps not having the infrastructure. I know that they have been all named in this place. I do not want to miss anything, so I do not want to list them all off tonight because it is very important. If we are working toward reconciliation, we need to do more about this. We cannot let people die. That is exactly what we are doing on our watch. That is not good enough. We talk a lot at the status of women committee about mental health. One of the greatest challenges is getting mental health services. Imagine if there were no hospital 20 minutes up the road, but instead people had to jump on maybe a propellor, maybe a boat or something like that. Where do people get their mental health services? Those are the questions being asked by so many of the people living in indigenous areas, who are living in those rural and remote areas. We could do better and we should be doing better. The government has spent so much money and we have seen no results. It has hired so many people with, once again, fewer results. It has increased bonuses with even fewer results. It shuffles money from one place to another. Please, start getting it right. Indigenous people deserve it.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:39:09 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I know that when it comes to indigenous services from the federal government, it can feel like a very complex issue, given all the different topics that we have to discuss, be it infrastructure, programs or staffing. No matter what we have seen in all past governments and the current one, it is not necessarily the number of staff in the bureaucracy but the unwillingness of the bureaucracy to devolve decision-making back to first nations, Métis and Inuit that is one of the harshest impacts. Therefore, when it comes to reconciliation, I know how important it is that, when decision-making is being given back to indigenous peoples, the devolution requires resources that allow indigenous peoples to make decisions about mental health care and about cultural care. I wonder if the member agrees that when we are ensuring that indigenous peoples are making their own decisions, equivalent resources must be provided so that they can act on those decisions.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:40:50 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am looking at my little sticky note that says “her voice”, and her voice is that member for Nunavut's voice. We cannot move forward unless there is reconciliation and we cannot move forward unless indigenous people, Inuit people and Métis people are at the table. Yes, of course this comes with resources. Things do cost money, but, when it comes to spending money, I am such a mother. It is about spending money wisely, and I just fear. I have watched the current government explode with its pocketbooks, but it just does not get us anywhere. I really appreciate the question, but money needs to be spent wisely.

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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:41:31 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-61

Mr. Chair, I was listening to the member's speech. I want to, first of all, thank the NDP for initiating this take-note debate today. Given where we are in terms of access to water and clean water, today was a momentous day with the tabling of legislation in this House. Bill C-61 talks about clean drinking water for generations to come. It talks about ensuring that first nations, Inuit and Métis communities have the tools to control water systems and protect the lakes and rivers that they source their water from. It commits investments, ensuring that we do not return to Harper-era cuts, to freshwater systems. It is based on years of consultations and is the process of a co-developed system. I wonder if the member opposite could comment upon the bill that was tabled today and how it turns the page on the legacy of the previous Conservative government.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:42:21 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, from the movie Jerry Maguire, the member had me at clean water. It is that simple. However, let us be honest here. We can sit there and talk about clean water, but we have to get the job done. I know that there has been money announced for Oneida Nation in my region of London, Ontario, but we still know that there is so much more to be done. In 2015, the current government ran with a plan to make sure that there was water on all first nations. I am sorry, but it has been eight years and we are still seeing a lot of lack.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:42:58 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank my colleague for her very compassionate comments. The speaker before my colleague talked about driving change and she alluded to some of that in her comments as well. When 99.2% of the executives at level 3 and above, the top 50 executives in the department, are getting performance bonuses, I wonder about a change in the system. How can we measure performance pay, so that we are not paying bonuses to people who are not getting the job done and the organizational goals are not being met and the results are not being met? I wonder if my colleague would like to comment on how actually creating some accountability in the top levels of the department, right up to the minister, might actually facilitate the driving of change, so that the outcomes and the results for indigenous people across our country are improved.

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Mrs. Karen Vecchio

Dec/11/23 9:43:55 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, part of my concern is with respect to accountability and the current Liberal government. We have not seen the two go along hand in hand for a long time. Absolutely, we need to have that accountability. We need to move forward with first nations. Unfortunately, I just know that with the current government we have not seen that accountability.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:44:21 p.m.
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Re: Bill C-262 Bill C-249

Uqaqtittiji, I will be splitting my time with the member for Winnipeg Centre. I acknowledge all of the work that has been done by the New Democrats for indigenous rights, now and before my time. Jordan's principle emerged out of the work of former MP Jean Crowder's Motion No. 296. This motion was followed by Bill C-249 tabled by former NDP MP Pat Martin in 2008. Both called on the government to immediately adopt a child first principle based on Jordan's principle. Jordan's principle is now one of the most important programs run by the federal government to uphold its obligations to indigenous children, thanks to the NDP. Bill C-262, introduced by former NDP MP Romeo Saganash in 2016 finally forced the breakthrough that led to the government passing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act in 2021. New Democrats fought for investments in the last budget, and we secured $4 billion over seven years for the for indigenous, by indigenous housing program. From the beginning, I knew this amount was not enough. Much more investment is needed. The NDP agreed to the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy, knowing it could make a dent in the current situation. If the NDP did not fight, we would not have gotten anything for housing. When the Liberals and Conservatives will not step up, New Democrats do. Last week, the Conservatives voted against the supplementary estimates, which included investments for Indigenous Services Canada at $6.8 billion and investments to Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada at $3.2 billion. These total over $10 billion in departmental funding that indigenous peoples rely on, which the Conservatives voted to deny. As for the Liberals, they are not much better. We have heard from the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council that there are massive backlogs at Indigenous Services Canada for issuing status to registrants. This leaves infants waiting 18 to 24 months to get their health benefits. This is absolutely unacceptable. We hear about the huge backlogs to address Jordan's principle issues. We hear about the backlogs to address payments for services through the non-insured health benefits program. We have heard that Indigenous Services Canada is changing funding formulas for education without even talking to indigenous communities. Indigenous Services Canada set a goal of 2030 to eliminate the infrastructure gap, but they have no hope of achieving that at current investment levels, as it is a $349.2-billion first nations infrastructure gap. Indigenous peoples have offered solutions, but they are consistently ignored. Not only are they making cuts to investments to improve the well-being of indigenous peoples, they are planning to cut staff in their department. According to their website, they anticipate cutting staff by 1,000. Imagine how much worse these backlogs will be. They will keep indigenous peoples marginalized. Grassy Narrows is still waiting for its mercury care facility, despite repeated assurances from the Liberal government that it would be built. Tataskweyak Cree Nation in Manitoba had students with no school to go to as the school remained closed because it had no heat. It is still waiting for a new school after their roof caved in last month. That school, when it was built originally, was already overcrowded. There are many more examples across the country. The Liberals love announcements and photo ops, but they disappear when it is time to actually flow the funds that indigenous peoples need. The urban, rural and northern indigenous housing strategy is one such example. It was announced in 2022, and it was supposed to be released in 2023. It is now December 2023, and we have not seen the release of those funds.

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All Topics

Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:49:30 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank my hon. colleague, the member for Nunavut. She is a powerhouse not only here in this place but also for indigenous people right across the country. She made a particularly important intervention in relation to the urban, rural and northern indigenous housing fund, which she has been a champion for. However, there is no question that there have been delays. Can the member elaborate on ways the government could, through her advice, ensure this program hits the ground and supports the communities most in need?

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Ms. Lori Idlout

Dec/11/23 9:50:03 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I thank the member for his ongoing support. We were both elected at the same time. I also very much appreciate the great work of the MP for Vancouver East, who has been a great leader in ensuring that these funds eventually get released. I think the solution is simple. When it comes to the NDP pushing for these funds to be released, the government should just do it and stop giving us excuses for not delivering them. When it makes promises to disburse those funds, it should make sure that it works with indigenous peoples to get them released, because they know what they are doing. They will make sure the funds are spent with accountability and that indigenous people get housed.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 9:50:58 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, my colleague sits with us on the INAN committee. I would like her to recall that, back in the spring, we were talking to the minister about on-reserve graduation rates. Both the minister and the deputy minister were surprised that, according to their department's results and plans, they were supposed to set a target for grad rates. I do not know if she remembers that conversation, but we were very surprised that neither one of them was aware of this rate that was supposed to be set. There was a lot of confusion in the room. Finally, they came back and committed to us that there would be a rate set this fall. This was after an expected target for the graduation rate had been promised for two years. This fall, the target they came back with was to improve the graduation rates over and above what they were last year. It took two years to set that as a target. Graduation rates are a very critical component of success. Could my colleague comment on how the department has failed indigenous kids in the context of not supporting them and not striving to achieve some targets?

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Ms. Lori Idlout

Dec/11/23 9:52:24 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, education was used as a genocidal instrument for generations. Residential schools were used to “take the Indian out of the child”. I can still intimately recall horror stories shared with me by former students that happened just for saying a word in Inuktitut. When it comes to education, we need to be careful about what we are saying; education can still be used as a tool to diminish what indigenous peoples can achieve in their lifetime. Whenever I go to my communities in Nunavut, I always make a point of visiting schools and visiting with students. I encourage students and remind them that they can become healthy, productive adults by making choices. I did not have choices. I was forced to go to post-secondary education. I was told the way I could succeed as an adult was to leave my community, go to a southern institution and become a successful adult. Now I tell students in Nunavut that, if they want to become successful adults, they can be hunters, seamstresses or healers. They can practise their culture and have success as adults.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

Dec/11/23 9:54:15 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is such an honour to share a spot with my good friend and colleague from Nunavut in this House for a take-note debate that was called on, once again, by the NDP. The NDP and our indigenous caucus have called on take-note debate after take-note debate, fighting for our right to be a human being in this place that some call Canada. When I saw the budget estimates by the current government, it reminded me again that this fight is long from over. I did not even see the crisis of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls and gender-diverse peoples mentioned once. What is shameful about this is that the current Prime Minister acknowledged it as a genocide. It speaks to the normalization of genocide against indigenous women, girls and two-spirit and gender-diverse people in this country. Time and time again, we have to be grateful for the tuppence of incremental justice that has been given by consecutive Liberal and Conservative governments. I am happy to help push forward, along with families and advocates, a red dress alert system that will help keep us alive should we go missing, should we experience violence. We now have a hope to be found, but we should not end up in that place to begin with. We need the services and support to live in dignity. We need a recognition of the ongoing systemic racism in the wilful underfunding of indigenous people in Canada, which includes the sunsetting of $7.6 billion in funding over the next five years. I have heard from the minister that they are going to replace the funding, that programs ebb and flow, but we know that rates of violence have not decreased. They have increased. We know the number of children in child welfare is at an all-time high. We know that putting kids in care is a pipeline to becoming a murdered and missing adult. With indigenous women, girls, gender-diverse people and men and boys, we know there is a pipeline, yet Jordan's principle, which has made a fundamental difference for children living across this country and has facilitated the ability of indigenous bodies to make decisions about how funding is spent, is being sunset. It has been over four years since the national inquiry and we have to call for take-note debates so we can respond to one call for justice at a time. Every time we call, how many more women, girls and gender-diverse people have gone murdered and missing? We should not be ending up in landfills. We know that the very relatives we are searching for right now would not have been there if we had a guaranteed livable basic income, as in call for justice 4.5, had a right to housing facilitated and had proper mental health care, all monies the Liberals will be clawing back with the $7.6 billion cutback. We should not be an afterthought. We should not be a midnight take-note debate time and time again. We should not have to fly people across the country to be given the same rights, remembering that indigenous women do not even have the same rights as other women in this country. I am calling on the government to do right, to make reconciliation not a word but an action. I do not want to hear that word anymore. It is like a swear word to me. The government should show me that it is reconciling through action.

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Hon. Gary Anandasangaree (Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 9:59:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I always appreciate my hon. colleague's comments and feedback. I think it is critical, and I recognize the frustration she expresses. She does that for her people, and I am very grateful that their voice is here in Parliament. I want to thank her for that. One of the things we are trying to do, based on the suggestion put forward by the member for Winnipeg Centre, is a red dress alert. I am wondering if she could talk about how important that is in the context of what we are talking about today, which is to ensure that we have sustained funding for missing and murdered indigenous women, but particularly for programs that will target and save the lives of indigenous women.

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Dec/11/23 9:59:52 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the minister. I have worked very closely with the minister in the beginning stages of implementing a red dress alert. However, there cannot be consultations for months and months. This needs to be led and directed by indigenous peoples. We need to be honest about systems that were supposed to protect us that do not; the ongoing systemic racism, for example, in policing. How are we going to set up those systems that are for indigenous, by indigenous people, as my colleagues have called upon, in relation to funding? Again, the red dress is critical, and I am thankful for the fact that we are getting there, but we need prevention. I should not have to search for places for women who face serious life-and-death violence to find a shelter bed in Winnipeg or treatment for trauma. I should not have to worry that, if I cannot find that one bed, it will cost a life. This is what that $7.6 billion means, especially because we are chronically underfunded. That is like $50 billion, because there is already not enough being invested to ensure that people with indigenous rights are afforded the same human rights as everybody else here. This cannot happen; it will cost lives.

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Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP)

Dec/11/23 10:01:35 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague for her advocacy, her patience and her continual fight for indigenous peoples and their rights. I want to focus my question on the issue of violence against women within the context of the cuts that would be coming, and there is $150 million targeted towards shelters. The member just raised the issue around shelters and the lack of shelters. When indigenous women are trying to flee violence, they need to be able to get to a shelter for safety. Yet, at the same time, the government is looking at cutting $150 million in shelters. In what universe is this justified? I wonder if the member could comment on that.

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Dec/11/23 10:02:28 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. colleague for Vancouver East for her allyship and advocacy, particularly around indigenous housing. That $150 million was provided during COVID. Now the excuse is that the government is cutting back the $150 million in funding, because it was special funding that was implemented in COVID, even though we know that rates of violence have increased since COVID. How can it justify cutting $150 million from shelters that are needed for people fleeing violence? It cannot just be any shelter; it also has to be culturally appropriate. There have to be people there who understand the distinct needs of groups, including indigenous peoples. That cutback is going to cost lives. That cutback is going to take away beds that could mean the difference between a person surviving or not. We are here again talking about a $7.6-billion cutback because this is a life-and-death matter, and it is such a normalized topic in this place, we barely have an audience. We are human beings deserving to live with dignity and human rights. That is very simple. We have to stop making excuses. This government needs to stop stalling, doing incremental justice and provide the support that is needed now.

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