SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 265 - Dec/11/23

Dec/11/23 10:13:00 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I appreciate the comments from the member opposite and the passion he brings to this place. Unfortunately, it seems that he may have misunderstood the comments that I made. I take no issue with the funding itself. I recognize that funding is very necessary for the department, but, unfortunately, we have seen an increase in funding and not a similar increase in the outcomes, the tangible results of that funding. That is where the issue lies. The government has to ensure that these dollars get to the communities that need them, get to the leadership, to ensure that the supports are being funded. It is not a discussion about more or less. It is a discussion about ensuring that the dollars are getting spent correctly and that the dollars that are getting spent are going to support first nations and indigenous peoples right across the country.

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Mr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC)

Dec/11/23 10:14:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, near the end of his remarks, the member for Kenora outlined possible steps that the Government of Canada could take to reduce red tape and empower first nations. Perhaps the member could just expand on what he believes are tangible, concrete actions we can take to ensure better accountability and better use of money to support indigenous communities?

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Mr. Eric Melillo

Dec/11/23 10:14:27 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, an important aspect of this is economic reconciliation. We have to work in partnership with first nations and indigenous peoples across the country to ensure that they have the power and ability to create wealth and to work independently of government so that these nations can provide the proper supports that they need and get the government out of the way to ensure that can get done.

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Mr. Brad Vis (Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon, CPC)

Dec/11/23 10:15:07 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, as the member of Parliament of a riding with 31 bands of Stellat’en, Stó:lo, Nlaka’pamux and Secwépemc peoples, I hear first-hand how the quality of service from Indigenous Services Canada impacts my constituents. Too often I hear from first nations that ISC is slow-moving and uninformed of their policies, and that government officials lack accountability to the people they are supposed to serve. Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon is no stranger to natural disasters. Major flooding and seasonal wildfires threaten our communities, and in the case of first nations, they are to rely on an office hours away, sometimes in a different region of the province, in Vancouver, to respond to emergencies and assist in recovery. There are a lot of things I could talk about at length this evening. I had a discussion this afternoon with Chief Leon of Sts'ailes Nation, who particularly noted deficiencies in emergency preparedness, a lack of post-secondary education opportunities for his band members and a failure to meet the housing of indigenous people on reserve, particularly for those who have low incomes. However, I want to talk tonight about the failures in disaster response and recovery. I will give two quick examples. The 2017 Elephant Hill wildfires destroyed homes, businesses and properties, including those of the Ashcroft Indian Band. An elder and former chief lost his home in that fire and applied for funding under the ISC emergency management assistance program through the band. Funding was granted, and although ISC acknowledges amounts were assigned to the elder to replace his home, the funding never got to him. He remains homeless six years later. Where is the accountability? Departments are required to ensure public funds are used in the manner for which they are granted. This is just one example of many that I have heard where ISC washes its hands of financial accountability and fails to ask for financial reports and audits. There are many examples at Lytton first nation as well. In 2021, B.C.'s atmospheric river nearly wiped out Shackan first nation territory altogether. Indigenous Services Canada is responsible for on-reserve first nation emergency management, unless otherwise explicitly contracted out to the provincial emergency response agencies. While neighbouring municipalities, such as Merritt and Princeton, received prompt evacuation orders, the responsible ISC office in Vancouver did not alert Shackan first nation to the danger when the only bridge to the mainland was severed and the territory was consumed by the river. It is absolutely ineffective and, I would say, irresponsible for ISC to take responsibility for emergency management without actually being able or equipped to do so. A year later, ISC announced $900,000 for Shackan first nation and neighbouring reserves impacted by the floods. Where has this money gone? Shackan first nation continues to live in a temporary encampment in Merritt and ask themselves this question every day. ISC should be able to count for not only where funds have gone but whether public funds were used appropriately, according to the terms and conditions in which they were granted. These concerns are not only mine. They are coming directly from my first nations constituents across different bands and tribal councils. I will note that, before I came to the debate tonight, it was pointed out to me that, in the year 2018-19, there were approximately 4,200 public servants working at the Department of Indigenous Services Canada. That has jumped, today, to over 7,200 employees. My constituents ask me, “When the Government of Canada is spending so much money on bureaucracy in Ottawa, why has the service delivery fallen so short of where it should be?” I cannot answer that question. I do know that, if the Department of Indigenous Services Canada was cut in half, it would not make any difference to any of my first nations constituents because the department is not accountable, is not doing its job, and is not stepping up to the plate to help the people in Mission—Matsqui—Fraser Canyon who have had their lives taken away from them in major disasters over the last number of years.

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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 10:20:04 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member opposite for his contribution to tonight's debate, and I do not doubt his sincerity about addressing the needs of his constituents, particularly the first nations that he represents. I also do not doubt the factual accounting that he outlined tonight about the severe climate events that are plaguing everyone in this country, particularly in his riding. However, emergency preparedness is critical for all Canadians, particularly for indigenous Canadians suffering from the effects of climate action. There is an emergency management assistance program that is administered by Indigenous Services Canada. There was $216 million dedicated to that very program in the fall economic statement, which is the same statement that the member and his entire caucus voted against on Thursday and Friday morning. When $260 million was on the table to support his constituents, why did he not vote for it?

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Mr. Brad Vis

Dec/11/23 10:21:02 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I voted no confidence in all the government measures, because I do not believe the NDP-Liberal coalition is capable of running this country in an effective way that can be accountable to indigenous people today. Indeed, there were certain aspects of that fall economic statement, such as emergency management, that are worthy. However, overall, I cannot give confidence anymore to the government in good faith. That said, I question the ability of the government to even administer large sums of money. The disaster financial assistance program, which was over $5 billion, largely targeted at my riding and a few surrounding regions of British Columbia, has not been allocated two years later. People are still waiting for their homes and have lost hope.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 10:21:57 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member for what I believe to be a kind of passion for the support of indigenous people. However, it is important to understand that, when we speak of indigenous people, particularly first nations on the west coast, it is a perspective of being a guest, a settler or even a trespasser at times. Does the member recognize that where he is from, where he lives and where he plays, is a place of unceded territory, and that the conditions present for the many nations on the west coast are largely because of an occupation of Canada? Would the member be clear in his response as to whether he understands the difference between unceded territory and ceded territory? Would he support first nations' call for jurisdiction and rights in relation to those lands, even if they fall in the way of a resource project, at which time they are most important?

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Mr. Brad Vis

Dec/11/23 10:22:54 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I am a proud Canadian. I was born in Canada, and I acknowledge the Canadian state. The Crown had signed contracts with many of the first nations that I represent, and the Government of Canada has a duty to uphold the agreements it signed with the first peoples of this land on their traditional territory. This is why I am pleased that our leader, the member for Carleton, has put forward a policy that would allow first nations to shape the direction in which natural resources are developed in the future. They are calling for the rights to those assets, and they should have access to them. I painted some very bleak pictures, but just the other day, the Leq'á:mel First Nation actually received a settlement of $75 million. It had fought for over 20 years to receive this, going back to those original agreements that were signed when they were put on reserves in the first place. We have a ton of work to do, but the words that I spoke tonight were directly informed by my constituents in the Stó:lō territory, the Secwepemc territory and the Stswecem'c territory. I took those words, and I put them in Parliament at their request.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 10:24:15 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I want to thank my colleague for his passionate comments. The member talked about some of the frustrations with Indigenous Services Canada and the growth and ballooning in some of the statistics. One thing I would like him to comment on is the investment in internal services in Indigenous Services Canada, which has increased from $146 million in 2018 to just under $300 million in 2023. Could the member speak to the kind of bloated bureaucracy that is here in Ottawa, rather than services out on the ground serving the people that he represents?

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Mr. Brad Vis

Dec/11/23 10:24:51 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, all government departments are required to make public departmental reports, and they have to outline to all people in Canada where they stand on their own metrics. For Indigenous Services Canada, only 17% of the metrics that it outlined to measure its success were met, which is an absolute failure. This department needs to do better, and it needs to get out of the way. One comment I hear very frequently is that the ISC rep changes, the first nations do not know who they are talking to and the ISC rep has never even taken the time to meet the leadership of a first nation and build a real relationship. That is not happening, and to me, that is the first step that some of the public servants listening tonight could consider when they engage with my constituents in Mission—Matsqui.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais (Edmonton Griesbach, NDP)

Dec/11/23 10:25:49 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I said this earlier today and I will say it again. We often find ourselves in this place speaking, sometimes yelling, crying, kicking and screaming. Today, we are here, yet again, to speak about the condition of genocide in Canada, a condition that is pervasive, mysterious at times and one that continues to kill Canadians right across this country. It harms indigenous nations. It silences them at times of need and, worse, it leaves those who are most vulnerable behind. The kinds of things that we see when we speak of the genocide that we are experiencing in Canada are directly related to things that every single Canadian can relate to: their love of a child, their mom or a grandparent. Imagining the worst outcomes for them, even for just a moment, can be heartbreaking. Imagine, all those years ago, in 1867, a declaration in this place to usurp the authority, title and lands of indigenous people right across the country, and then being met by hostile wars as this country travelled west, forcing through its railroad. In the words of Sir John A. MacDonald, he was going to bind this country together with two bands of steel. He forgot to mention that he was going to bring a bunch of guns too. Along that railroad was the destruction of the bison. It carried with it settlement, residential schools, homophobia and misogyny. What we have found brought to our lands in the west, in Treaty 6 territory, was a remarkable challenge. We have seen starvation. We have seen disease and we were forced into a position in which, ultimately, Canada would attempt to have us cede the land. To me, just being a native kid from northern Alberta, how do I find myself in this truth? How do indigenous people across this country find themselves in this truth? They find themselves in this truth when they are faced with policing that discriminates against them. They are faced with that reality when they are picked up on the street and told they are too poor, so they are going to go to jail. They face that truth when simply trying to feed their families and are told that they are unfit parents and lose access to their children. This is not a genocide of 100 years ago. This is a genocide of today. That is why it pains me to stand in this place yet again. Where is everyone? These are words that I will speak time and time and time again, even if Canadians and their MPs, in particular the ones from the Liberal and Conservative benches, will not listen. I will still keep speaking this truth. It may be politically inconvenient at times but this is the truth we must speak. One thing that is greater than our own partisan games is truth, whether that truth is spoken today or 100 years from now. Our ancestors knew that truth. They knew that truth, which is why they came together. They came together to speak that truth, to share their reality and to reopen wounds manifested in the truth and reconciliation commission, to which our elders, who were once children, had to recount the memories of being tortured, of seeing little kids try to run away and freezing to death, of seeing their mothers taken advantage of and beaten in the streets. This is not the Canada Canadians expect. There have always been two great sins in our country. One great sin are the things that we have done to first nations, Métis and Inuit: incarceration, reserves, the shooting of dog teams, the taking away of languages from children. The other great sin in this country is that it failed to tell Canadians the truth. Members in this place stood up so honourably, claiming the betterment of our people, right under the noses of so many good-willed Canadians who would believe those lies. They would believe that they were doing something good. We have an opportunity in our country. Poundmaker, a great chief, who was a rebel chief from my place in Alberta and Saskatchewan said that there are but two paths afforded to us, one that looks back and one that looks forward. Indigenous people are in a place now where we must see how far we have come and know that, although we are bruised, although we bleed and although there are those who may call us weak, we are the exact opposite. We are strong because we have elders to remind us of those stories. We are strong because we have children who remind us of how blessed we are. To share a quick note of love in this place, I have found serious challenges in being a member of Parliament in here. However, what keeps me going so many times are the words and advice of my elders and of people who are here today. The member for Winnipeg Centre, when I had my first anxiety attack in this place, present with such terrible rhetoric from both the government and the official opposition, said to me that I have a right to joy. What a profound statement that is, and it is a statement that indigenous people far too often never get to hear. It is a statement that, although innocent in its nature, is rooted in a kind of fear and reality that is so present among indigenous people today that they even forget to speak of it. I want to take an opportunity now to speak about how indigenous people have led the way. Although we are here to talk about Indigenous Services Canada and the lack of support that we see in its programs and services, I want to highlight the strength of indigenous people, who are doing the good work and surviving even without it. I grew up in a small community in the northeast of Alberta called the Fishing Lake Métis Settlement. It is an indigenous Métis reserve for Métis people in Alberta. It is the only community like it. We are adjoined to federal reserves. The one I am adjoined to is the Frog Lake First Nation. There, I grew up very poor, not knowing whether there was ever going to be anything in the fridge. I grew up not knowing exactly where I would be getting the next opportunity to see my family. I grew up not knowing when I would have the opportunity to see the uncles who are on such a difficult survival trail on their own, or whether I would see the women in my life ever again. However, what I did find in that place, growing up in these communities, was something we do not speak about enough in this place. Given the fact that we have so much poverty, we never mention that we have so much love. We have love in these communities. There were people in my community who had nothing, but who gave me a piece of bannock when my family had none. They were there when my dad was killed on a work site, and they were all there to offer what little they had. That is the kind of love and the kind of community that indigenous people have today. We are not weak; we are the exact opposite. We are loving, we are kind and we are brave. Even though this place would seek to continue to destroy us, I know that the indigenous people who show up for their community members, who still have nothing, will continue to do so. I have full faith that they will continue to show up for one another. This is not a speech for the Liberals. It is not a speech for the Conservatives. It is a speech to my fellow Canadians and to my relatives, saying that we are strong and that, although there may be issues we fight today, our ancestors always knew we would be there tomorrow. My commitment to them today, is that they will continue to be there tomorrow. I want to highlight some of the successes of indigenous people and their strength, bravery and courage. Indigenous people, just last week at the Assembly of First Nations, did something remarkable: They joined the chorus of Canadians, people right across this country, in demanding a permanent ceasefire in Gaza. They are demanding the release of Israeli prisoners, hostages, and also the release of Palestinian prisoners. They are demanding that there be a humanitarian corridor, and they are invoking indigenous solidarity. Although these may seem like only words, they are truly historic, and indigenous nations have not just been cast to the history books; they are still here. We are still here, and we will continue to stand for indigenous people here and right across the globe, now and forever.

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Hon. Arif Virani (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, Lib.)

Dec/11/23 10:35:55 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the member opposite for his contributions to this House and for his very sincere remarks this evening about his personal and lived experience. I believe sincerely that on this side of the House we have made progress. However, I know we need to make faster progress and do more with respect to various aspects of reconciliation, particularly with respect to water. We inherited a situation with 105 drinking water advisories and there are now 28. In the spirit of absolute openness, in my current role and portfolio, we are working on rolling out an indigenous justice strategy to cure the overrepresentation of indigenous communities in the justice system in Canada. I wonder if he could offer me some commentary with respect to his own lived experience and the experience of others with whom he is in contact regarding indigenous experiences in the justice system and how we can cure and improve issues for all Canadians.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais

Dec/11/23 10:36:52 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I thank the hon. member for the question, which is sincere in its intent. I hope to offer him a sincere response. I visited the Edmonton women's penitentiary, the largest penitentiary for women across Canada's Prairies, and what I found in that place after hosting a round table was that the majority of people there are indigenous women. I met a grandmother who, when I asked why she was there, simply said that she was looking for her granddaughter. She was in a desperate situation where she came from in Manitoba. She had lost her granddaughter and had no idea where she was. She was forced to take on the pursuit of justice herself and found herself in Saskatchewan living in poor and rough conditions. She ultimately committed acts of desperation to feed herself while looking for her grandchild. In addressing the condition of overrepresentation in prisons, we must understand the people we incarcerate and why they are there. If the government were to take the approach in its justice strategy to ask why people are there, it would find that poverty, discrimination and racism are the root causes of the overrepresentation we see in our prisons. These are good people. They have been cast out by a society that has told them they are not enough, that even though they are breathing, they are not alive and that even though they may stand, they will stand in a prison. It is time we truly understand that what we are experiencing in Canada is a genocide. When we speak of that, we speak about the loss of those who are incarcerated today. They have lost something. They have had something stolen from them. The original sin cast upon them has manifested into their own harm and that harm is reproducing and duplicating itself. We must address the core issue, which is the harm that has been done to them.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale (Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, CPC)

Dec/11/23 10:39:06 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, I appreciate the opportunity to stand and continue this debate as we look into indigenous services and, in our opinion, the absolute failure of this department in many sectors. I want to ask the member opposite if he would like to comment more on the Auditor General's report. The Auditor General is “frustrated that almost a decade later, there has been little to no improvement.... Indigenous Services Canada still has not identified which First Nations communities most need support to manage emergencies”. She says that if the department did identify these communities, it would target its investments accordingly, which of course, as we have pointed out in this debate, has not been happening. There are 112 infrastructure projects on the minister's desk that would help first nations leaders stay on their land in the event of an extreme weather event, but the government refuses to move forward to start to improve these conditions. I wonder if the member can comment on that.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais

Dec/11/23 10:40:18 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, in relation to the Auditor General's report on the immense need for infrastructure and emergency preparedness supports for first nations communities, we found a troubling and disturbing trend. When the initial fund was established, it was modelled off the existing and current natural disaster scheme in Canada, which monitored at that time how frequent they were. Today, the Auditor General is stating how dramatically different that reality is and how natural disasters due to climate change are being exacerbated. What were once normal storms are now extreme storms. What were once regular floods are now extreme floods. What were once regular fires are now extreme fires. The Auditor General is pointing to this and raising the alarm that first nations, Métis and Inuit communities must be prepared for the disastrous conditions that climate change presents to them, conditions that are not of their own doing but because of others. I would invite the member to join us in supporting first nations in a fight to ensure they are better prepared for when natural disasters strike. Better yet, I ask him to help us support the fight against climate change, the most important fight to this generation, as it will destroy our planet and all peoples if we do not take it seriously.

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Ms. Rachel Blaney (North Island—Powell River, NDP)

Dec/11/23 10:41:48 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the member's speech made me remember hearing testimony at a House of Commons committee from former chief Joe Alphonse, who talked about the fact that there were serious fires and everyone around them in non-indigenous communities talked to them in a very disrespectful way. Even though they had a significant plan and had worked at a high level to make that plan, these people came into their communities and marked every house on the reserve that had children in it. I am wondering if the member could talk about how colonial practices continue to harm indigenous communities.

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais

Dec/11/23 10:42:31 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the story the member for North Island—Powell River mentioned is one that is present across the country, where indigenous knowledge is so often thrown in the garbage as just knowledge these people have, which is irrelevant to natural disasters, and that only science and its very narrow and empirical goals has the tools to address what we are seeing. As a matter of fact, the complete opposite can be true, where traditional knowledge has, for the better part of our country's history, protected North America. The exact opposite should be happening. Emergency services, governments, police, fire departments, ambulances and those who take care of our people should be fully aware of the skills, traditions and knowledge that we possess because they will often find that this important and life-saving knowledge will not just help indigenous people survive. It will help all people survive. This is the type of relationship indigenous people have been calling for in Canada for a long time, one that genuinely respects the knowledge we hold. We are a young country. We have only recently welcomed settlers to this place. We must make use of the time we have now, and we must ensure that first nations, Métis and Inuit rights are paramount to our country's present, but more so to our country's future. Our children are watching. We owe it to them.

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Mr. Gary Vidal (Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, CPC)

Dec/11/23 10:44:05 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, Bill C-29 was introduced on the last day of the June 2022 session, which was about the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation. Bill C-38 was introduced on December 14, 2022, and not revisited until 11 months later, again on the last day of a session. Bill C-53 was introduced on the last day of the session in June of 2023, and today we have the introduction of water legislation, not on the last day but the last week of a session. Does the member believe that the government is serious about its promise to indigenous people when, at the last moment and at the end of the last four sessions of Parliament, the government chooses to introduce indigenous legislation?

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Mr. Blake Desjarlais

Dec/11/23 10:44:57 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, the member pointed out the terrible and repeated pattern of neglect and delay by the government. It begs the question as to why a government, which touts having the most important relationship with first nations, Métis and Inuit, does not do the things that would manifest that relationship in a good way. It troubles me to know that this pattern continues, but it is not one that started with the government. It is one that started 150-odd years ago when the Indian Act was tabled in this place. It usurped the rights of indigenous people and communities and neglected their position of government, jurisdiction and place in this country. The greatest act of reconciliation we can truly have would be to acknowledge that our existing laws directly disadvantage indigenous people, and if we want to make it right, we must listen and recognize that the laws of indigenous people are the laws of this land.

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Ms. Rachel Blaney (North Island—Powell River, NDP)

Dec/11/23 10:46:12 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is always an honour to be in this place and speak on behalf of the amazing people of North Island—Powell River. I want to start by recognizing that I will be sharing my time with the member for Vancouver East. I want to give a special thanks to the NDP indigenous caucus, the member for Winnipeg Centre, the member for Edmonton Griesbach and the amazing member for Nunavut, for their tremendous work on making sure that we keep having these discussions. I also want to call on all members of this place to remember that this is not an indigenous issue. It is a Canadian issue. Canada was created on a line of colonization and genocide. We continue to see this repeated in our system, because it is the foundation of our system. Until Canada owns that and understands what that means, we are not going to see the changes that we need to see. We are here tonight to talk about the fact that Indigenous Services Canada is making some significant cuts. I represent a significant number of indigenous people in my riding, and I am very grateful to them. They educate me all the time. When I was thinking about this, a few nations came to mind. I thought about Ahousaht, which called for a state of emergency because of the number of deaths it was having in its small community. It was seeing significant drug overdoses, and in large part, the deaths in the community were directly related to a lack of supports and programming, which it desperately needs in the area. It has done a tremendous amount of work to bring forward plans, both to the provincial and federal governments, to start to address those issues. However, it is still finding the government slower to react than it would like. Again, I think this comes back to the issue that my colleague from Winnipeg Centre talked about earlier today. These are matters of life and death. This is not something where we are just saying to be nicer. We are saying that people are dying. They have been dying since the beginning of this country, and they continue to die. When it is a particular group, and we know in this place that it is the indigenous people who continue to have the highest rates of suicide across this country, that is enough for a significant call to action. We are just not seeing the intensity that is needed when responding. I think of Ka:'yu:'k't'h'/Che:k:tles7et'h'; I went to meet with that community recently. It is a very remote community doing some tremendous work. Its members talked about the infrastructure gaps. They are moving towards economic development, but those infrastructure gaps keep being a burden to them in taking that next step. They also talked about the fact that, as a remote community, they do not see those first responder services. They still have not seen the federal government stand up and say that it is going to be part of them moving forward, so their independence is something that is equal to every other non-indigenous community across this country. This is really about basic human rights. I think of Dzawada’enuxw, which is another remote community in Kingcome Inlet. The people there do not have a road to get to safety. If there is a storm, they all have to go to the school and wait for helicopters to pick them up. When that many people are being taken in hazardous weather, that is not a good solution; however, they do not get the support they need to make sure that road is there. They are not seeing the federal government step up and make it a priority, as though human safety should not be a priority. I think of the ‘Namgis First Nation, which is doing some tremendous work around language. It has created a language hub. The community is talking about how to bring children into the circle and start them in their own language first, so it is just who they are as they grow up. However, it needs the resources. In fact, every single nation I just mentioned has talked to me about language, about the fact that they are doing everything they can to fix it. However, they still do not see those supports. Many years ago, my husband, who went to residential school, made a mask for my son's school. It was called “the Indian in the child”. It was a transformation mask, and I hope people understand what that is. On the outside, he had a white face covering a beautiful indigenous face inside. This history is today. My son stood there with his uncle holding that mask for the rest of his school to look at, because he knew that he was the first generation of his family not to go to residential school. This is happening today, and we need to make it right. Seeing cuts in this country means that we will continue to see this genocide. The government must be held accountable, as every Government of Canada must be held accountable.

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