Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Oh, senator, it is good to be back. I appreciate the question. The quote is not accurate.

What I was referring to was just stoking fear and anxiety in things like a government would cause a cold winter. That was my exact quote. Quite frankly, I used a phrase that is often used in Newfoundland: “My nerves are rubbed raw.” People’s nerves are rubbed raw. I do personally resent it when we get carried away with partisan phrasing that causes and invokes unnecessary anxiety.

The fact of the matter is that with the federal buyback on the price on pollution, 8 out of 10 families will get more money from it. To be honest with you, I have spent an inordinate amount of time putting my head around it, writing script for it and speaking to my iPhone to get the message out. But the bottom line is that we do want to make sure we put a price on pollution, and we do want to make sure that families are not the ones to take the hit for it. In other words, they will get cash back. In Newfoundland and Labrador, they are about to get roughly a little over $1,100 back per year, four times a year. It will be listed in their bank accounts, and they’ll get it directly.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Senator, I thank you for the question. Sometimes my title belies more jurisdiction than I actually have. By way of accuracy, as a minister per se, this would not fall under my jurisdiction. However, as a minister of the Crown, I take account for the decisions that are made at the table. Would I have some say in this? I absolutely will take responsibility for that.

The government does recognize the importance of the temporary foreign workers. They are extremely important to food producers and processors. A number of departments have been working to simplify the processes to make sure we facilitate the safe entry of many of the workers who are there. We are getting our heads around working with the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Immigration and with my colleague Minister Qualtrough at Employment Services on how we deal with this.

We do not want people to be vulnerable and not protected in this country when they perform such important work.

Hon. Andrew Cardozo: Thank you, minister, for making the time to be here with us. I have a couple of quick questions about major issues in your department.

The first is anti-scab legislation. Could you tell us where that is at? Will your legislation be the same or different from the private member’s bill that Alexandre Boulerice has introduced — Bill C-302. Also, with regard to employment equity — further to my colleague’s question — when do you anticipate introducing that legislation, and will the target groups be different than the four that have been named in the past?

Hon. Percy E. Downe: Thank you, minister and welcome to the Senate. Good to see you again. I would like to follow up on that last question. The consultations ended in December. I am wondering if you could elaborate on what the conclusion of or the consensus on that consultation on replacement workers was.

It is a delicate balance, I will acknowledge to this chamber. We have done superlative work. Not me; I will give all credit to officials. Some of the most impressive public servants that I have worked with have been in the Labour Department, particularly in our Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service.

I was scared to death last year, as a new labour minister, with CP Rail, CN Rail, VIA Rail, Loomis, Purolator and WestJet all up within federal jurisdiction about work stoppages and any of those affecting our supply chains. So ensuring that we do this and we do not adversely affect supply chains in this country is incredibly important.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Well, that’s just it. It is. It’s all about the emissions, senator. That’s what it is about. All of it is about the emissions. I completely agree with you on that. I cannot stand the phrase “just transition.” I’ve said this for years. “Just transition” is a phrase that workers hate, and my constituents don’t like, and so I don’t like it either. We tried, anyway, within the bureaucracy and amongst ourselves to say the words, “sustainable jobs.”

This is not about phasing out the oil and gas industry. The oil and gas industry will be with us for quite some time, and I would argue proudly so. I am proud of what we have done in this country and what workers have accomplished in this country. Some 30, 40 years ago we asked workers in Saskatchewan and Alberta to figure out how to get oil out of sand, and, by God, they did it. We are the fourth-biggest producer of oil and gas in the world. That is a remarkable accomplishment.

As the senator well knows, out my way, Exxon Mobil has said there is no harsher environment in the world in which to extract oil than the North Atlantic of Newfoundland and Labrador. What we have managed to do — and I acknowledge this, senators — what we have managed to do as our government is sometimes — frequently — isolate the very people that we need to lower emissions and build up renewables, which is the workers of this industry.

My job is to make sure — I need more workers in the oil and gas industry, not less. We need more. We have a mission in this country because the world’s eyes are on us, because we have the natural resources and because we have the expertise to show that we can lower emissions, build up renewables, increase the prosperity of this country and not have it done on the backs of ratepayers. That’s our challenge.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: It is a good question, senator. I’m not sure how it relates to my last answer, which I couldn’t be clearer about. I am a member of Parliament from an oil-and-gas-producing province. I am a member of Parliament — elected three times, I might add — from an oil-producing province. I am keenly aware of the challenges. I am also keenly aware of the prosperity that has come from it. And so we will work with industry and unions — more to the point, I actually made a very quiet trip — unlike some of my colleagues, I don’t tweet everything that I do. I did fly out to Alberta quietly to meet with Gil McGowan — who has become, I would like to think, a friend — of the Alberta Federation of Labour and with the Operating Engineers.

With all of the heightened talk — because I made the foolish mistake of going on vacation and coming back to an inordinate number of headlines about just transition coming out of Alberta. So I flew out there to let everyone know that we are on task and on mission. We are convinced that Alberta, Saskatchewan and Newfoundland and Labrador can lead the world in this.

I can tell you quite proudly, in my home province they have gotten the message, and we are moving forward. We are determined to lower emissions where we can find them, as are many, many oil and gas workers whom I meet with and industry, who know which way the puck is going and are determined to skate to it.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: I appreciate the question, senator. The key is always in the qualifying phrase: respecting the fact that this is provincial jurisdiction.

I am a product — my first job, I worked for five years in the provincial government of Newfoundland and Labrador. When I came into the Ministry of Natural Resources, my Alberta colleague at the time Sonya Savage schooled me immediately on what is in provincial jurisdiction and what is in federal jurisdiction. But I knew darn well, having been around in Hibernia’s early days, but also in areas like health, that you tread into those places very carefully.

I think that what we are seeing happening right now with the quantum that has been proposed by the Prime Minister to the premiers and as the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs goes about bilateral agreements and working with each province, I think I have to be very careful about what I say.

But I can tell you that given the dearth of health care professionals right now in the system, how we figure out how people can move around within this country and how we recognize foreign credentials are some of the absolute top priorities as I sit down at the table.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: As you well know, Senator Yussuff was very much on top of that file in terms of coal transition.

There is a significant, and fundamental, difference in that coal is being phased out altogether. It is not only being phased out in Canada, but we want it phased out around the world — you cannot just do that, though, for jurisdictions that do not have an alternative. In Canada, in the meantime, we have alternatives — and we have for some time — whether those are fossil fuels, hydroelectricity or nuclear power. Therein lies a big difference.

This message gets so muddied and politicized. I learned during my tenure as Minister of Natural Resources that the most important thing you can do is singularly focus on one thing — and that is lowering emissions. Everything else is noise; everything else can become a distraction.

It is on two fronts: We have to lower emissions for its own sake, but we also have to lower emissions because, competitively, it will place our product and our fossil fuels in a far better place in the world, as the world shops around now — not only for cheap sources, but also for sources at lower emissions.

Hon. Wanda Thomas Bernard: Minister O’Regan, thank you for being here today. Two of my colleagues have asked about employment equity, which I was planning to ask, so I have a very straightforward follow-up to the questions asked by Senator Loffreda and Senator Cardozo.

Many equity-deserving groups are asking me what the delay has been in the reporting of the task force. Are you able to tell us what has caused those delays?

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: No, it is nothing other than they asked for more time in order to reach conclusions and write the report. I thought it prudent to do that once it was requested.

I realize there is a great impatience among a number of communities in this country to get this done. I also acknowledge that, as I said, I don’t think there has been any fundamental change to it since 1986.

Senator, I will acknowledge it is a fine line. I believe impatience is a virtue. I have not lost my virtue in my seven years as a member of Parliament, but one owes it to these groups to also find the time to get it right. I’m attempting to find that now. I am told that I will have the report by this spring.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: That’s right. The Pay Equity Act came into force in 2021. We appointed the Pay Equity Commissioner to support that compliance.

The Pay Equity Act directs employers to take proactive steps to make sure that they are providing equal pay for work of equal value. It has brought about a dramatic shift in how the right to pay equity is protected in federally regulated workplaces. It is administered and enforced by Canada’s federal Pay Equity Commissioner and is supported by the pay equity division at the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

To more directly answer your question, it is a complex issue, as I’m sure the senator can acknowledge. We need time to get it right, so we have created a framework for federally regulated businesses to understand the requirements to develop those pay equity plans and to start making pay adjustments.

An overriding principle for me here is the closer that it can be done to the ground, the better. When you come from a provincial government or a small town in Labrador as I did, you do not like the long arm of big government coming at you. Growing up in Labrador, the long arm of big government was St. John’s, not Ottawa. The closer you find the solutions on the ground, the better.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: I don’t know whether if you put “just transition” in air quotes it shows up in Hansard.

Look, it’s not a matter of workers finding themselves in a low‑carbon environment. Workers will create that environment. They will lead this. Let me finish an answer that I did not get a chance to finish earlier.

When I sit down and talk with the union leadership in Saskatchewan, Alberta and Newfoundland and Labrador, they are firmly in charge of this. We doubled Union Training and Innovation Program funding for union training centres, for instance, and I will be a big advocate for increasing the funding for them. In other words, I want them to point out where the opportunities lie as we lower emissions and build up renewables. That is what we’re doing. That will all happen with energy workers. It will all happen with people who are currently in the industry, and I would argue that we need more on top of it.

We have to build up carbon capture. To be honest with you, we have a great agreement with the Alberta and Saskatchewan governments, and certainly Newfoundland and Labrador.

Industry is embracing this as well. With great pride, I acknowledge that the industry association in Newfoundland and Labrador, which was called Noia, the Newfoundland & Labrador Oil & Gas Industries Association, is now called Energy NL. They completely not only embrace and champion oil and gas, as they always have, but now they’re embracing hydrogen, hydro and all of the in-between and how they all work together. That is how we go about it. That is how we do it.

I’m very proud of my crowd. I think out my way, we see the world very practically. This is the way the world is going, and we want to be on top of it.

Hon. Marty Klyne: Minister, we know that as all provinces and cities strive to reach emissions that are 40% to 45% below 2005 levels, many will do it by phasing out coal plants, as Saskatchewan has said it will do. In that regard, we need to be ready to mobilize and ready a workforce that’s prepared to work in a low-carbon-emissions economy.

What is your government doing to ensure a bright future for energy workers and to demonstrate the upside of this just transition in terms of transferable skills transitioning to well‑paying, steady jobs for Western Canadians who are working in a low-carbon economy, which they are not now?

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Not since the State of the Union, senator, I will admit, but I keep in constant contact with Secretary Walsh, my colleague who, according to CNN, at any point now could be named head of the NHL Players’ Association. I’m just hoping that he continues to honour his invitation to me to appear at the Boston St. Patrick’s Day Parade. We have a good relationship.

I think that trade unions, to be honest with you, senator — you bring up a very good point — will be important allies. These are brothers and sisters who work across the border. I can tell you, under the stresses and strains during COVID and dealing with the Trump Administration, I found allies before I ever envisioned myself being Minister of Labour. I found allies in the trade unions, such as operators, engineers and others, who were working on various issues that we were working on, senator, like Keystone XL and trying to get that pushed forward and on Line 5.

Those are extraordinarily important relationships because we have an administration now that is raising the bar both on how they view workers and trade unions in their country and also, remarkably, with the Inflation Reduction Act, which could be one of the most seminal pieces of legislation in terms of lowering emissions in the world. This is a very different problem than I had when I was dealing with the Trump Administration, I can tell you, where it was very difficult for me to look at Canadian businesses who saw the bar being lowered. Now they are seeing the bar heightened. It is a good problem to have, but it is a big challenge, I acknowledge, in making sure that we look after Canadian workers with our most important trading nation.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Right off the top, senator, I will get you a more detailed response than perhaps I am able to provide at this time. As I said, we are committed to reducing the gender wage gap and increasing financial equality in the workplace.

In 2018, we provided $3 million over five years to introduce pay transparency for federally regulated private sector employers, and we will continue working to support women in the labour market, particularly through pay equity legislation and pay transparency, as well as Canada-wide early learning in child care and the good work that I think we’ve done with provinces on that score. I think that will have a huge effect.

I would be happy to get back to you with particular answers to those questions.

[Translation]

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister, the federal government is bargaining with nearly all of the unions representing more than 300,000 public servants. Some of those unions have outrageous demands, clearly, which would add billions of dollars to the deficit as your own Treasury Board has said. The government and the unions are clearly on a collision course. Canadians should brace themselves for the largest strike in Canadian history.

As Minister of Labour, do you think the government should table legislation to pre-emptively prevent a strike? Or if you decide to allow Canadians to be held hostage by a civil service strike, how long do you think the government should wait before tabling back-to-work legislation?

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: I cannot speak directly to the quote, but I could just say that we’ve never produced more oil than we are right now. That is a fact. The prosperity that it brings to every corner of this country is a fact. Climate change is also a fact, and the future competitiveness in the industry is a fact.

Alex Pourbaix — I deal with Mr. Pourbaix, the Chief Executive Officer of Cenovus in Calgary. I would not call him a tree hugger, but he sees the competitive sense in this. He came out and said there is huge opportunity in lowering emissions, working with the government on lowering emissions and increasing renewables.

By the way, it is worth noting too that the province of Alberta by a country mile leads this country in wind and solar — by a country mile. The thing that we also have to make sure that we are going to do, and this came out in the federal Economic Statement, is make sure — just because they are producing winds and solar does not necessarily mean that they embrace workers. Some of them don’t. Some of them are looking for non-union workers.

We want to make sure that any tax credit we give to companies that are building up renewables are worker-friendly, much as the Biden Administration has done. I still cannot get over it. Dealing with the Trump Administration in my two years as natural resources minister, they were not worker-friendly either. Now we have an administration, a trading partner and a great friend and ally that is challenging us — and our biggest customer by far of oil and gas — to match them on lowering emissions, building up renewables and looking after workers. Good problem to have.

Hon. Seamus O’Regan, P.C., M.P., Minister of Labour: Yes, we are working on that, senator. We’re referring to what is sometimes referred to as gig workers. We see it sometimes. One, albeit, it is provincial jurisdiction, but an example, of course, is Uber.

We are seeing similar models in long-haul trucking. You have a lot of people who are private contractors, it is an industry that is growing inordinately and it is called Drivers Inc., but there are sometimes abuses within that model. People are not aware that they have, as de facto employees, benefits that are accrued to them, whether it be sick leave, paid leave, EI or CPP — all the things that we take for granted.

Our job is to make sure that where there are de facto employees in a situation within a federal jurisdiction, that we look after them, that they are aware of their rights and obligations and that they have access to them.

The good news is that we have a huge, growing industry, and it is probably the biggest part within my jurisdiction, which is long‑haul trucking. We just have to make sure that all of the employees there get the basic rights that every worker in federal jurisdictions in this country should be accrued.

Hon. Pamela Wallin: Honourable senators, I give notice that, at the next sitting of the Senate, I will move:

That the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Commerce and the Economy be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit with the Clerk of the Senate a report relating to its study on the state of the Canadian economy and inflation, if the Senate is not then sitting, and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Senate.