Senator Pate: Senator Gold, I think you know that if, in fact, that were true, the government would have produced that evidence. But the evidence they have produced was that 9 in 10 Canadians want to see an elimination of mandatory minimum penalties. Wouldn’t you agree that data has been clearly sought and received by the Department of Justice?

Senator Batters: Senator Gold, since you did reference that particular mandatory minimum being used for pepper spray in your speech, could you please get us that number and provide it to this chamber when you have it?

Hon. Dan Christmas: Thank you, Senator Gold, for your remarks. I appreciate the many examples of individuals who could benefit from the removal of mandatory minimums.

Senator Gold, my question is similar to other senators’. If these mandatory minimum sentences were removed, do we have any projections or studies as to what the anticipated reduction of federal incarceration rates will be for Indigenous people as a result of this bill?

Hon. Denise Batters: Senator Gold, in your speech you referenced a one-year mandatory minimum sentence for a prohibited weapon, which, you said, includes pepper spray. Senator Gold, come on. We both know that before that charge even gets to court, police and Crown prosecutors would lay criminal charges appropriately. Such a criminal charge would not probably even be laid if it were not appropriate. But since you used that example, how many criminal convictions have there been in the last five years in Canada for pepper spray where the accused has received a one-year mandatory minimum sentence? I would guess that number might hover somewhere around zero.

Senator Pate: Thank you, Senator Simons, for sparking another question from me. In discussions with the government, it was clear that the primary focus for this legislation was to address mandatory minimum penalties, which was in the 2015 election platform, as you know, as well as in the Calls for Justice of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and the Calls to Action of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It has been clearly laid out that this is only a step forward, even though there is a patchwork of mandatory minimum penalties; and, unlike the medical assistance in dying, where our most recent debates were sparked by 1 lower court decision, we have more than 43 court decisions, and counting, that have struck down mandatory minimum penalties.

Would it be too far for me to go to say that it has been brought to my attention that this is likely the only opportunity and there are many people, both within the government and outside, who want to see us push on this piece of legislation to actually help it achieve the aim that the government has ascribed to it?

Senator Gold: Senator Pate, I don’t think that in my speech and my defence of the principles of this bill did I rely upon the views of Canadians or public opinion. I’m talking about the number of offences for which the majority of persons are sentenced and committed by virtue of mandatory minimums. That was the data that I was referring to.

The government, like all democratic governments and certainly our democratically elected government, must and should be responsive to public opinion, but it also has a responsibility to do what it believes is the right thing in the circumstances. We do not pass laws by referendum but through the processes in which we are engaged now. Again, it’s the position of the government that the scope of this bill is supported by the evidence. It’s supported by the facts on the ground and, if passed, it will make a difference on the ground.

Senator Pate: I apologize. I obviously didn’t articulate that very well, Senator Gold. What I was saying is that if that evidence existed to show that these mandatory minimum penalties would significantly impact the incarceration rates, that data would have been produced and would have been part of your speech. I don’t envy your position of having to defend that, but it would have been. There have been numerous questions and certainly there is an abundance of evidence that the data has not been produced. You have not been able to provide the actual numbers. Have I missed something?