Senator Simons: Much like Senator Jaffer and Senator Pate, I think there is so much tremendous potential in this bill, and you have made an eloquent case for why this is an important and necessary first step.

However, will there be any kind of commitment from the government to use this as a beta case to see how well these changes work and to build upon that and consider a second tranche of charges? Once we have proof of concept, will there be any kind of expectation that the government will build upon this foundation to offer more judicial discretion for the next range of charges?

Hon. Kim Pate: Thank you, Senator Gold. I share Senator Jaffer’s perspective. Thank you for a very well-crafted speech.

I’d like to ask you this, though. When I’ve met with members from the Department of Justice, the assertion that this will result in a significant decrease in the number of people in prison has not been borne out by the Department of Justice’s own research. In fact, they indicate that maybe, as you’ve indicated — and most of the examples you used were of provincial and territorial incarceration — there may be some decrease for Black and some Indigenous folks, but there won’t be a huge decrease at all, in fact, no significant decrease in the numbers of Indigenous and Black prisoners serving two years or more.

In addition, most of the changes that are talked about in the drug laws have already been achieved through health policy and negotiations between provinces and municipalities.

Finally, I’d like to ask you this. You mentioned the testimony of the Canadian Bar Association, the South Asian Bar Association, the African Nova Scotian Justice Institute, PhD candidate Elspeth Kaiser-Derrick, all of whom went on to recommend that the bill go much further. Wouldn’t you agree that, in fact, in most cases, the evidence, including from Aboriginal Legal Services, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and many other witnesses at the Justice and Human Rights Committee in the House of Commons, recommended not that we shoot for the stars but, in the interim, until other mandatory minimum penalties are repealed, that judges be permitted the structured discretion to not impose mandatory minimum penalties in exceptional circumstances?

Senator Gold: Senator Pate, I’m not sure I actually agree with, if I understood correctly, your question. There are clearly people who want this bill to go further. There are those who deplore that it is taking any steps whatsoever, and we will hear that debate both in committee and beyond.

There have been many challenges to many mandatory minimums, and the courts have upheld some and struck down others. Many are currently before the courts as well.

With respect, I don’t think that calling this a patchwork approach does justice to the thought that went into it. It focused on those 20 offences that represent the great majority — that’s the government’s understanding — of the impact of mandatory minimums on the lives of those who were subject to the criminal justice system and those I mentioned, notably drug and long gun offences, where the impact is disproportionately felt by members of the Indigenous and racialized communities.

Finally, I don’t think that we know that this is the last chance or the only chance. The legislative process is an iterative one in a democracy. This government has presented this major step forward. It is too much for some and too little for others. That doesn’t make it right just because it’s sort of like the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears, but the government is of the view that it is a responsible and appropriate response to a real social problem and, if passed, will make a real difference.