Senator Jaffer: Senator Gold, congratulations on an extremely well-thought-out and very difficult speech. Also, congratulations to the minister. As you said in your speech, it is not an easy thing to change politically and in all other ways. I compliment you and the minister. The minister has been very courageous in doing this.

But, senator, you know where I’m coming from and, of course, I support what you said, every single word you said. But to everything you say — that one size does not fit all, that we have to introduce discretion into the justice system, and, as you say, that this is difficult — yes, it’s difficult. I am saying to you not to shoot for the moon. I am saying to you that there are some cases to consider. In my calculation — and we will sort this out in committee — you said 20; I would have said 22, but that doesn’t matter.

The government is making mandatory minimum changes on 20. From what I’ve counted, there are around 73 mandatory minimums, and the judges have held at around 37. My figures may be wrong. I’m not sure — 37 mandatory minimums seem to be unconstitutional.

I say to you that there is now a mishmash out there, 20 and 37, and then there is 73. Would the government look at, in unusual and cruel circumstances, allowing the judge, on mandatory minimums, to have the discretion to not impose mandatory minimums?

Thank you, Senator Gold, once again for an excellent presentation.

Hon. Kim Pate: Thank you, Senator Gold. I share Senator Jaffer’s perspective. Thank you for a very well-crafted speech.

I’d like to ask you this, though. When I’ve met with members from the Department of Justice, the assertion that this will result in a significant decrease in the number of people in prison has not been borne out by the Department of Justice’s own research. In fact, they indicate that maybe, as you’ve indicated — and most of the examples you used were of provincial and territorial incarceration — there may be some decrease for Black and some Indigenous folks, but there won’t be a huge decrease at all, in fact, no significant decrease in the numbers of Indigenous and Black prisoners serving two years or more.

In addition, most of the changes that are talked about in the drug laws have already been achieved through health policy and negotiations between provinces and municipalities.

Finally, I’d like to ask you this. You mentioned the testimony of the Canadian Bar Association, the South Asian Bar Association, the African Nova Scotian Justice Institute, PhD candidate Elspeth Kaiser-Derrick, all of whom went on to recommend that the bill go much further. Wouldn’t you agree that, in fact, in most cases, the evidence, including from Aboriginal Legal Services, from the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and many other witnesses at the Justice and Human Rights Committee in the House of Commons, recommended not that we shoot for the stars but, in the interim, until other mandatory minimum penalties are repealed, that judges be permitted the structured discretion to not impose mandatory minimum penalties in exceptional circumstances?