Senator Plett: Thank you, Senator Tannas. First, this is in no way to take away from your speech. I agreed with it 100%. As I said earlier today, Senator Tannas, I think I gave you a fair bit of credit for suggesting a way forward because of your issues about giving leave — or your caucus’s issues about giving leave — and how the Leader of the Government could move this forward.

I spent a bit of time this afternoon talking about and maybe paving the way for explanations that I have to make out there about what might be perceived as time allocation or a programming motion. So I guess I want to read something into the record and then ask you a question.

I just looked up what a programming motion, in fact, means. A programming motion can be used by the government to timetable a bill’s progress through the House of Commons by setting out the time allowed for debate at each of its stages. The motion is usually put forward for agreement immediately after a government’s bill has passed its second reading. Typically, it’s the government that would put forward a programming motion which would have time allocation, and so on and so forth.

I guess, Senator Tannas, I’m only asking this for the record because I don’t know that we need to debate what a programming motion is. I do not want to take anything away from Senator Gold. He has been very cooperative in trying to work this through. However, if the story is to be told correctly, this was actually a motion and an idea brought forward by the leader of the largest group in the Senate and the Leader of the Opposition in order to bring this to a close and to put some time constraints on it. The government agreed after the other four parties agreed.

I would simply like your affirmation that that, in fact, was the progress that was followed here.

Senator Tannas: Actually, I conveniently left that out of my speech because I was cutting it down for time, but you’re right. The credit for the road map goes to Senator Saint-Germain and working with you.

This is what has to be done at the end of a period of time. We have to find ways to wrap things up; otherwise, we never will. We’ll spin our wheels, and we won’t accomplish what could be accomplished and we won’t prioritize properly. I thought it was a masterful job. I supported it 100%.

In relation to the programming motion, I agree that we need to come up with a different word. But the fact is that the motion we put forward had two components. One was that it was unfair, and it was unadvisable to ask a growing number of senators who were uncomfortable with sitting quietly and granting leave. It made more sense to put the decision in the hands of every senator collectively, not individually, to determine whether this was a suitable way forward, and we’ve done that.

So a programming motion was not what we did. We did a motion to ratify, importantly, a decision of the leaders that needed the input of all senators in order to have permission to move forward. Thank you.

[Translation]

Senator Plett: Thank you, Senator Patterson, for that speech. Let me say at the outset about your analogy of David and Goliath that David was never a minority; he had God on his side. Nevertheless, Senator Patterson, my question really is this: I felt the other day when we passed four government motions in a matter of an hour that I needed to leave and go take a shower.

I suggested to the Leader of the Government in the Senate here a few minutes ago that I needed to wash my mouth with soap after supporting the government. So I take no great pride and pleasure in supporting what I believe has certainly been, even in this particular bill, a shirking of responsibility.

There is a difference here, in my opinion, and I will get to my question immediately. The difference is that this, in my opinion, was not precipitated by the government. It was precipitated by the Supreme Court of Canada. They struck something down. They forced the government to do something and, quite frankly, they forced the government to do something, in my opinion, in too much of a hurry. This is not like a campaign promise that was made two years ago and then two years pass before they come forward with the bill.

Senator Patterson, you alluded to having a couple of suggestions, and they were certainly thought out, about the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee having a quick meeting or having a second Committee of the Whole. What would have been the purpose, other than we would have heard some people?

We really didn’t have the time to do anything about it, other than what we have done now — voting on a bill, hopefully passing the bill, then having the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee do a study, sending a report to the government, having the government respond in a certain period of time and hopefully correct something that indeed is flawed. What could we have done better with the path that you possibly suggested?

Senator Patterson: Thank you for your speech.

As you know, one of the strong criticisms of the bill from the legal community — noted scholars I won’t name and women’s groups — is that there’s too high a burden on the Crown in this draft of the bill, and that we all believe there should be a fix, but the fix is seriously flawed.

I’m just wondering if you’re concerned that while we wait for the committee to meet and hear the witnesses we know weren’t heard or weren’t heard properly, then the 120 days — that because of this stiff evidentiary burden on the Crown, persons will get away with crimes of rape or murder through what is an easy burden for the defence and a difficult burden for the Crown.

Hon. Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu: Honourable senators, I had planned on making a speech at third reading, but I will not. Contrary to what I said at second reading, and having listened to my colleagues who support Indigenous communities, I will be voting against this bill.

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