Hon. Mary Jane McCallum: When you talk about the challenge of getting it right in terms of legal issues surrounding Indigenous people, it has always been — and continues to be — problematic, especially with racial profiling. To me, 27% finding contraband is very low. How long will the guards have to search for these sites that are often super-encrypted? If we are going to be fair, don’t you think it should apply to all Canadians?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read the third time?

(On motion of Senator Woo, bill referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce.)

Hon. Frances Lankin: Honourable senators, I have a point of order.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Question? We have 30 seconds.

Senator Lankin: You said that with a question mark at the end, a note of surprise, Your Honour.

Honourable senators, in anticipation of the possibility or probability that we will be returning in person next week, I want to raise the question that relates to our rules about where people must be seated and where they must be in their seats or in their space if they are going to be speaking at all.

In preparation for how we would handle sittings during COVID — and we ended up with the hybrid model — there was consideration of how we maintained physical distancing, and that included suggestions of having senators seated in the galleries. I know that the Speaker can open up the galleries to the public or close them to the public and that could be accommodated, but our rules stand in the way of that potentially happening.

I mentioned earlier in a question about our colleagues who, for example, may be extremely immunocompromised, having undergone treatment for cancer, for instance, or who have a family member who comes down with COVID and they must also isolate themselves for a period of time.

I come to this with my experience from an Ontario jurisdiction with women’s legislation and right to know about dangers. I’m wondering how those colleagues will feel about coming back if they must sit shoulder to shoulder.

I have to admit that I am one of these people. I’m here and I participate in Ottawa, but I have a husband who is extremely immunocompromised. If I have space and I take all of the precautions that I do in all aspects of my life, I can be comfortable. If not, I can’t.

Those people who are perhaps in a situation more serious and significant than mine will be denied the opportunity to participate in the business of this chamber if they feel that they can’t be corralled into a space where there’s no physical distancing. I’m concerned about that, and I realize that in order to accommodate that it will involve some order of this chamber because it involves the actual rules about being at your seat when you’re speaking.

I raise this as a point of order knowing that, Your Honour, this is something that would normally be discussed with the Speaker. Maybe in saying this the leadership group will hear it, but I believe it’s a significant problem and it’s a significant challenge for senators to exercise their privilege and right of being here and participating if we don’t have those kinds of measures in place.

While you may not be able to rule on a mandatory process and we have to come back to this chamber to deal with — I leave that with you for consideration and for the consideration by my colleagues in this chamber.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, I want to thank Senator Lankin for raising this very important issue that needs to be discussed and needs to be managed in order for all senators present to abide by the distancing, masks when sitting and when speaking and the space to accommodate.

I thank you again. I will bring this to the attention of the Speaker because this is an urgent matter that needs to be resolved before our sitting next week. Thank you.

Hon. Raymonde Gagné (Legislative Deputy to the Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, with leave of the Senate and notwithstanding rule 5-5(j), I move:

That, when the Senate next adjourns after the adoption of this motion, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, May 3, 2022, at 2 p.m.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Is leave granted, honourable senators?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, do you agree for five additional minutes?

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Senator Brazeau, your time has expired, but I see that Senator McCallum has a question. Do you wish to ask for five additional minutes?

Some Hon. Senators: Agreed.

Hon. Judith G. Seidman: Therefore, honourable senators, in amendment, I move:

That the motion in amendment be not now adopted, but that it be amended by:

1. adding, after point (b) in the amendment, a new point (c) as follows:

“(c)a letter from Dr. Theresa Tam, Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, outlining how the Senate sitting in person only would contravene guidelines issued by her office”; and

2.changing the designation of points (c) and (d) in the amendment to points (d) and (e).

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. With respect, I do not agree with the assumption that underlies your question.

The Government of Canada, for many months, has made a reasonable and appropriate offer to all opposition parties to have these documents vetted by a panel of judges — security-cleared and informed judges — to ensure that politics and partisanship do not enter into a decision as to what documents can be safely released without compromising national security.

It is my understanding that, at least to date, only the NDP has expressed the willingness to participate. The official opposition has been resistant to do so. It is the government’s hope that all parties will join in to this process, which is open, fair, transparent and has precedent in our Parliament. To that end, the government hopes that the official opposition and the Bloc will see fit to participate in what is an appropriate process to balance the needs for transparency and the protection of national security.

Senator Plett: Last June, Senator Gold, I asked a series of questions regarding the government’s secrecy surrounding the security breach at the Winnipeg lab. For example, I asked how a Chinese military scientist received high-level clearance to work at the lab. I never received an answer to my questions. It’s clear now that I was never going to get an answer.

A government that thinks nothing of suing the Speaker of the House of Commons isn’t going to bother itself with answering questions in the Senate.

Your government defied orders from the House, breached parliamentary privilege and ignored legitimate questions, leader. Why should any Canadian believe that an NDP-Liberal committee reporting to an NDP-Liberal government will shed any light on this?

An Hon. Senator: On division.

(Motion agreed to, on division.)

(At 8:32 p.m., the Senate was continued until Tuesday, May 3, 2022, at 2 p.m.)

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Honourable senators, if I may enter the debate on the point of order simply to thank the senator for raising this issue and to offer my commitment in my capacity as government representative — but more importantly as a senator — to work with other leaders, I commit to working with leaders in the hope we can get an appropriate motion for distancing ready to go next week. I’m confident that the leaders will collaborate with me and we can have success in that regard. That would include also to allow gallery seating so that we can make sure that everybody is and feels safe if and when we’re here in person.

Senator Batters: Also, in the remarks that you just gave, you were indicating that the health information that you provided was from the Senate and not from PMO or anything like that. Are you speaking about the health information just simply being the total number of people who have contracted COVID in the Senate and the Parliamentary Precinct over the last little while? Is that the health information you’re talking about?

Wouldn’t you agree, Senator Gold, that what Senator Plett and now Senator Seidman are requesting is actual health information about guidelines and opinions from the federal government about how to do in-person meetings safely? That’s the kind of information that we’re requesting. Senator Seidman is requesting a letter from Dr. Theresa Tam, the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, outlining how we can do these things. That’s the sort of health information we’re talking about.

Is the health information you were speaking about merely just totalling up who might have COVID and whether or not it was simply a positive test but really minimal symptoms ranging from people who are fairly sick with COVID?

Senator Boniface: Yes, of course.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, are we agreed?

Some Hon. Senators: Oh, oh.