Hon. Jim Quinn: I move the adjournment of the debate.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: It is moved by the Honourable Senator Quinn, seconded by the Honourable Senator Downe, that further debate be adjourned until the next sitting of the Senate.

If you oppose adjourning the debate, please say “no.”

Senator Dalphond: Thank you, Senator Woo, for the question.

We are going a bit beyond the scope of this bill. I know that in the U.S. there are some special powers given to the President to seize and freeze assets and also to make specific orders. This is as far as I know about the American situation. I will avoid commenting further.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: We’ll have a vote at 6:01. Call in the senators.

Motion negatived on the following division:

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: I believe the nays have it.

And two honourable senators having risen:

Hon. Claude Carignan: My question is for the Leader of the Government in the Senate.

On February 18, 2022, to justify the use of the Emergencies Act, the Minister of Foreign Affairs said, and I quote:

 . . . we know that foreign interference is a reality, which is why we decided to go ahead.

That said, on the subject of funding, she also said, and I quote, “. . . where is this information campaign coming from? Where is its funding coming from?”

These were the grounds used to justify the seizure of bank accounts belonging to individuals who participated in the various demonstrations. In your opinion, did these grounds justify the violation of section 8? Were there sufficiently urgent, real and serious grounds to seize bank accounts without a warrant?

Senator Dalphond: Senator Richards is right to refer to the fact that the source of the issue here is a contract that was entered into between the federal Crown and the Government of Canada in 1880. That’s an old contract. I agree with that. That is a clear definition of it. But the judgment of the Federal Court of Canada that was released in September, before the Saskatchewan legislature adopted the motion, is essentially about the scope of this contract. Since the Federal Court has decided that the scope of this contract does not encompass income tax, GST, excise tax or tax on carbon, maybe we should look at these issues carefully and make sure that what is left for Saskatchewan — Saskatchewan is forced to provide an exemption as long as the exemption is provided in the contract.

So if there’s not much in the contract, maybe we’re not talking about $391 million. Maybe we’re talking about the tax on capital according to provincial, Saskatchewan law for the periods that are not yet time barred. Maybe we are talking about a few million dollars. Maybe it’s something we should be looking at as you suggest. I certainly appreciate your suggestion and think it’s a good one.

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Honourable senators, I understand from the questions asked of Senator Tannas, and from the answers he gave, that it is suggested that we focus on this issue sooner rather than later. I would like to point out, for those who say it has been adopted unanimously by the House of Commons and the legislature and suggest that the Senate should maybe not carry out due diligence, that section 47(1) of the Constitution Act provides that if we have not adopted the motion “within one hundred and eighty days,” then the House of Commons can vote again on that motion and the Senate will not be able to say anything about it.

So what you’re proposing is that we send it to committee, look at it, report and decide within six months following the date that the House of Commons adopted the motion.

Senator Lankin: Thank you, senator. Those are issues that we can explore at committee when officials and, hopefully, the minister appear; and I undertake that I — and others, I’m sure — will. I have no supplementary. Thank you.

(1610)

The Hon. the Speaker: Senator Woo, did you have a supplementary?

Senator Gold: The answer is yes. Colleagues, let’s recall, in addition, that TMX, Line 3 pipeline, NOVA Gas Transmission line and LNG Canada are all projects that the Government of Canada has approved and are being built. Thousands of jobs were created. The government continues to work and will continue to work with our partners in the sector to attract investment and grow our economy in a responsible way.

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for your question. As you pointed out, our mission in Ukraine is a training one, not a combat mission. A combat mission to Ukraine, colleagues, is not currently on the table. That is in line with what our NATO allies have stated. The NATO Secretary-General also said just that on February 24. We will continue to act in lockstep with our allies.

With regard to other aspects of your question, while I can confirm that the government has relocated some of our forces outside of Ukraine, the government will not disclose any specific details in order to maintain operational security. This does not signal the end of the mission, however. Canada remains committed to its capacity-building efforts and, of course, to the people of Ukraine.

Hon. Elizabeth Marshall: Honourable senators, my question is also for Senator Gold, the Leader of the Government in the Senate.

Senator Gold, the government has not released its debt management report for the 2020-21 fiscal year — a year that ended 11 months ago. That year was also the first year of the pandemic, during which the government borrowed heavily, so that report is of great interest. The government has a statutory obligation to table that report within 30 sitting days of the release of the public accounts. By delaying the release of the public accounts to December 14, the government has been able to push back the deadline for the release of the 2020-21 debt management report to March 28. Since we’re now studying Supplementary Estimates (C) and Bill C-8, which implements the fall fiscal update, when can we expect to see the debt management report?

Senator Lankin: I want to thank you for your contribution to our understanding of this bill, Senator Seidman, and I’d like to thank Senator Marshall as well. Both of you have such deep expertise that you bring to the consideration of a bill like this. It is helpful, and you play an important role as critics.

With regard to the concerns you raised, could you parse for me which ones you would want to move forward as amendments to this bill and which ones you think are the sorts of things that we might append in observations, for example?

My understanding is that there were discussions, though not necessarily agreement, that this might move quickly through committee.

Could you help us by telling us, from your own understanding, what you think could be accomplished through observations versus what would be a critical amendment to this bill? Thank you very much.

Senator Dupuis: Thank you, Senator Seidman.

I’m listening to you and taking notes, but I have a lot of blank spaces because your presentation was so complete that some of the information escaped me.

My first question is on the test specifications that were not included or were not specified. Could you come back to the explanation you provided? Do you think that these specifications should be subject to observation or that the bill should be amended?

[English]

Hon. Yuen Pau Woo: Thank you. I am keen for this bill to go to committee, and would support a vote right after.

I wonder if Senator Dalphond has a view on the American action to freeze the foreign reserves, essentially the assets of the Afghanistan government.

It appears now that they’ve made a decision to use half of those proceeds for humanitarian assistance but to take the other half — we’re talking about billions of dollars — to compensate the victims of the tragic 9/11 World Trade Center terrorist attack.

What is your view on this kind of freezing and repurposing of foreign assets?

Hon. Pierre J. Dalphond: Honourable senators, I rise in strong support of Senator Omidvar’s bill, Bill S-217, the Frozen Assets Repurposing Bill.

This is an important piece of legislation with the potential to build international momentum against human rights abuse and corruption, as well as to help improve the situations of victims of these people. Senator Omidvar first initiated this bill almost three years ago and I hope we will collectively give this matter some priority with committee study in the near term.

Bill S-217 builds directly on another important Senate initiative, that of former Senator Andreychuk, who led the passage of the Sergei Magnitsky Law in 2017 with Bill S-226. That law now allows for the seizures, freezing or sequestration of assets in Canada of corrupt foreign nationals responsible for human rights violations or corruption.

In Canadian law, assets may also be seized, frozen or sequestered under the Special Economic Measures Act which deals with sanctions, and the Freezing Assets of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act, which deals with requests by foreign countries in turmoil.

This bill will take the next logical step by providing a mechanism to distribute frozen assets to appropriate individuals or organizations.

This distribution will take place according to the five principles Senator Omidvar described in her speech in December: first, accountability for human rights abusers; two, justice for victims; three, due process in court for any distribution of assets; four, transparency in terms of both the identity of the officials and the value of their frozen assets; five, compassion with meaningful actions to the repurposing of resources to help vulnerable people.

Establishing this proposed law will further advance Canada as a leader in human rights. Senators can be proud to break this new ground together if we have the will to act.

On substance, Bill S-217 is nothing to fear. The concepts are already well established in our domestic law relating to the proceeds of crime, such as in the Seized Property Management Act. For this reason, I would suggest that this legislation is ready for expert input on the details at committee.

For example, I will note an interesting debate involving the Honourable Irwin Cotler and lawyer Brandon Silver of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights in Montreal, and the Honourable Lloyd Axworthy and our colleague Senator Omidvar.

The subject of that debate, published in Policy Magazine in 2020, was to what degree frozen assets should go to individuals affected by the wrongful actions, through individual claims, as compared to a more population-focused approach, at judicial discretion. This is a question within the principle and scope of the bill, appropriate for committee consideration. I look forward to hearing expert perspectives.

I would also note that under section 8, Bill S-217 permits distribution to both affected individuals and populations as appropriate to the circumstances, including through contributions to humanitarian relief. I’m sure that would be very useful to Ukraine.

With worsening human rights crises around the world, Canada must always take a stand for what is right. In some situations, this is best done through diplomatic channels, and in other situations through legal, parliamentary and public communications avenues. In some situations, all these avenues may have to play together, but they always play beneficial roles.

In this chamber, we have the benefit of advice on optimal approaches from colleagues with expertise in foreign affairs like Senator Harder, Senator Boehm and others, as well as the benefit of advice on international human rights, legal avenues, from colleagues like Senator McPhedran, Senator Jaffer and others.

On this point, I will note the successful collaboration in this chamber that led to the Senate’s adoption of a motion in June of last year regarding the Philippine government’s unjust and arbitrary detention of Senator Leila de Lima.

With Bill S-217, we have a clear opportunity to improve our domestic law to better address foreign human rights violations, and in so doing to improve the situations of victims and encourage positive action in the global community. We should seize the momentum.

Thank you to Senator Omidvar on this important initiative, and I think that the time has come to send the bill to committee.

Thank you, meegwetch.

The Hon. the Speaker: Is it your pleasure, honourable senators, to adopt the motion?

Hon. Senators: Agreed.

(Motion agreed to and bill read second time.)