Hon. David Richards: Thank you for your talk, Senator Gold. Also, thanks to the police. I have seven police officers in my family, and I have three in my caucus whom I respect a lot.

It’s funny that the support for this legislation comes in good part from a party whose members, up until two years ago, wanted to defund the police.

However, my question is about your statement that the Indigenous peoples wouldn’t be subject to this legislation. Are these always to be considered illegitimate protests, and can an Indigenous protest become violent? And if not, what would constitute a violent protest if the attempted derailing of trains and burning of police cars are never considered so? I think that reaches a level of violence. I would like you to comment on this, Senator Gold, please.

Senator Jaffer: Senator Gold, as a person of African descent and a Muslim, extra police powers always really worry me. I have first-hand experience of it. In 2001, I was in the chamber and we passed the Anti-terrorism Act. My community is still suffering from the effects of what we passed in 2001.

What I want to know, has anybody thought of how to reach out to African-Canadians, to Indigenous people, to people of colour so that they are not policed more than others under these acts. I know that many of them were not directly involved, but I can tell you that I have heard from many people in the community that these will be more powers that can be used against them.

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Have you had any discussions with any ministers or the Prime Minister about this? Thank you.

Senator Carignan: Yes, and I am certain you will like it.

You explained that it was a problem to coordinate the various police forces to deal with the situation before us, and that this required the use of emergency measures.

In 2010, at the G8 and G20 Summits, 21,000 police officers from different police forces were called in to provide security.

At the Summit of the Americas, 6,000 officers from four different police services provided security.

Why is it that what was possible at the Summit of the Americas, the G8 Summit and the G20 Summit was impossible here, in Ottawa, and that it was impossible to tow vehicles that were parked on Wellington Street?

Hon. Frances Lankin: Senator Boehm, I don’t know if you’ll have a chance to answer this, but your role in the Summit of the Americas as well as your knowledge of the G20 and G7 meetings have been referenced as examples where we were able to coordinate police resources. How many months of planning went into that? How much time was there to actually deputize police?

Senator Moncion: My question is this. Violence on the part of some protesters and the brutality of police repression marked the international G20 summit that took place in Toronto on June 26 and 27, 2010. You mentioned several times today that that summit was a success. So far, last weekend marks the largest police operation and the biggest wave of arrests in Canadian history. There was a security detail of 10,000 police officers on site at the G20, and the summit organizers were prepared for it. In Ottawa, there were 1,800 police officers who did an incredible job —

Hon. Marty Deacon: Honourable senators, before I ask my question, I want to share that earlier this morning I had a chance to have breakfast with many of our police officers to thank them. Their information and their insight — they were in this journey — has been quite enlightening for the debate we are having today.

I would like to back up, take a breath and go back to maybe seven days ago. I would like to dig a little deeper into the early stages that built us to recommending the Emergencies Act.

Government Representative, are you aware of which levels of our national security apparatus or others were consulted and listened to when the government was considering the invocation of the Emergencies Act? In other words, what sectors were at the table before it went to premiers and ministers?

Senator Marshall: It wasn’t the tools that I was concerned about with regards to having the police come in and provide assistance. What I’m focused on is the intelligence. The convoy started around January 20 or January 23. Why didn’t the government know that there were threats then? If there are threats, why didn’t they know then? Why did it take until the middle of February to know that there were threats serious enough that they have to invoke the Emergencies Act? That is the question I would like to have answered.

Since it took them so long to figure it out, how much confidence can we have in regard to them invoking the act and also deciding when it should come to an end? Those are the concerns that I have. Could you address that issue with regard to the intelligence, the assessment of the threat and why the government appeared to be so late in assessing this monumental threat or numerous threats that they’re talking about?

Senator Gold: Perhaps I misunderstood the question, but I’ll try to answer nonetheless. First, in a democratic country like Canada, neither the government nor Parliament directs the police. Every government must act within its own jurisdiction.

By the way, because you mentioned something earlier, I want to say that the legislation is very clear. It is not necessary for every premier or every province to agree. The text is very clear: There is a duty to consult, and if the government decides that there’s a crisis that’s not limited to one province, then it’s simply required to hold a consultation, and that is what happened. Only if an emergency that needs to be dealt with exceeds the normal, ordinary powers of the provinces and is limited to one province, and only in this circumstance, does the legislation require consent from the government concerned.

For three weeks, the government stayed within its jurisdiction and respected the jurisdiction of the police, which it does not direct. Municipal and provincial governments are separate and have their own jurisdictions. It’s wrong to say that the federal government did nothing. On the contrary, it shared information, provided its opinion, and consulted with other government bodies. I would add that, unfortunately, there were several meetings that the Premier of Ontario did not attend. It is not true that the government did nothing.

Respectfully, colleagues, the real issue is not necessarily what the government did in the beginning, during the second week or even before proclaiming the act. The government did what it could in its area of jurisdiction with the tools available to the Government of Canada, as opposed to the tools and other powers at the provincial or municipal levels.

[English]

Senator Gold: Although I am not at liberty to disclose the content of conversations, let me say this: At least from what we have seen on the ground in Ottawa and elsewhere, there is no evidence that people of colour, Muslims or other vulnerable or marginalized communities were subject to “extra policing.” On the contrary, those folks, such as you have described here in Ottawa, have benefited from the intervention of the police and from the fact that some of the abuses to which they have been subjected — verbal, physical and the like — are no longer taking place.

Again, these are temporary measures in an extraordinary circumstance. These are not powers that are going to last one minute longer than the emergency requires.

[Translation]

Senator Gold: If I had a speechwriter, I would — but, no. Thank you. It’s an important question. And let me be clear: I was being descriptive and factual because by the time our debate started — and we had all hoped it would start earlier, frankly, but the police activity made it impossible for us to return as planned.

We are an independent chamber, pointe finale, in all respects. In this respect of the Emergencies Act, it’s absolutely clear and to be applauded that we are to decide independently. We don’t have to wait for them to decide. We had not intended to wait for them to decide. We had no control over the other side. Had we been sitting and the House adjourned, it’s very possible we would have started the debate before them and even concluded it.

The fact does remain, however, that by the time our debate had started today, the House had spoken. I was pointing out to the chamber that the House has spoken, and it’s not simply the government party but also one of the opposition parties that supports it, as did their former leader Ed Broadbent.

So, colleagues, please know, as I assume you do, the respect that I share for us as an independent, complementary institution. I reserve the right, in the context of legislation, to speak about what our role is vis-à-vis the elected officials, which is hard‑wired or baked into the Constitution. This is the understanding of what the Senate was and was not to be by those who created our Constitution and created the country of Canada. The country was here before. But in this particular situation, this is not a case where it’s a question of deferring to the other place. Our job is to decide whether we confirm the invocation of the act or deny it, and that’s entirely up to us.

I find it relevant, nonetheless, that, after a long and charged debate, the other place has decided to confirm it. I invite senators to consider that fact or disregard it as you see fit. I think it’s relevant. But it’s not because we are subservient. On the contrary, the act makes it clear, as does the Constitution, we are an independent chamber and shall remain so.