Senator Patterson: Senator Dalphond, thank you for the enlightening reasons for this bill in which you describe the history of the districts in Quebec assigned to senators. I would like to ask you, Senator Dalphond, do you believe that the senatorial districts in Quebec are historical anomalies not consistent with the modern democratic and much larger province of Quebec?

Senator Dalphond: Thank you, Senator Patterson, for this very interesting and excellent question. I know you are one of those in this place who have been looking seriously at this qualification criteria of senators and the necessity to have property in specific provinces, a phenomenon which in Quebec has been increased significantly by this provision of the Constitution Act that says any senator from Quebec must reside or own property within the limits of the electoral divisions. It’s called electoral divisions, not even senatorial divisions. The 24 electoral divisions have existed since 1856.

You’re absolutely right that the 24 senators from Quebec must own property, but we must own property in a specific part of the province or reside in that specific part, which is not the case for most of us because we reside most likely in another part of the province.

Also, as you pointed out very rightly, it leads to a kind of absurdity. The province of Lower Canada, in 1856, was located on both sides of the St. Lawrence River going up to the gulf. After that, federal territories were ceded to the province of Quebec, including the whole northern part of Quebec. So you have about two thirds of provincial superficies with no senators. That map and these divisions correspond to a province that does not exist anymore.

I certainly support your attempt and your motion to try to initiate a constitutional amendment to change that, and certainly — unfortunately for Quebec — this is part of the historical compromise and will require not only that this Parliament modify the Constitution, but also that the Quebec National Assembly agrees to abolish these 24 divisions, which represent only about one third of the surface of Quebec and exclude all of the First Nations that are located in the rest of that province.

Fortunately, we can still have representatives of the First Nations in this house, but they are appointed for a division which is not necessarily the natural fit for their belonging. That’s something that should be corrected. Certainly, I agree with you.

Hon. Jean-Guy Dagenais: Further to Senator Patterson’s question and regarding the situation of senators who have senatorial districts in Quebec, don’t you find this situation discriminatory, because it requires us to own property? It’s the only province in Canada where this is required. Not only that, but the property must be worth more than $4,000. Couldn’t we use the opportunity of your bill being introduced to study that? I realize that it can be quite complicated to amend the Constitution. I just think this situation is discriminatory toward Quebec senators.

Senator Dalphond: My bill is quite modest and simple. It seeks to remove one word and replace it with three others. It does not seek to amend the Constitution or settle historical debates and historical injustices. I am sorry. It is a modest bill that I am introducing here on behalf of Ms. Shanahan, the member of Parliament. I am pleased that we are taking this opportunity to discuss more important aspects that deserve to be studied and considered in due course.

The answer should come from Senator Patterson. His bill would do this by abolishing the real property qualification, which is essentially obsolete, but I must add that Quebec needs to participate in this exercise.

I know that we may be called upon to amend the 1867 Constitution in response to a request from the National Assembly if Bill 96 passes. Maybe then we could talk more about the Constitution and take the opportunity to talk about other things, but for now, that goes beyond my bill, Senator Dagenais, and I would not want us to get into all that with my bill.

(On motion of Senator Martin, debate adjourned.)

[English]

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Miville-Dechêne, seconded by the Honourable Senator McCallum, for the second reading of Bill S-210, An Act to restrict young persons’ online access to sexually explicit material.

Senator Boisvenu: I visited penitentiaries in Quebec — not in the other provinces — and it is understood that when someone mentions the word “torture” over and over, they are referring to situations in third-world countries or totalitarian states. However, if we are using the word “torture” in Canada, we need to provide some scientific data to give it substance. When I talk about the number of women who are assaulted in Canada, I use data to back up my claim and to say that there was a specific number of women who were murdered or a given number of instances of attempted murder. If you are using a strong word like “torture” in the context of federal penitentiaries — we are not in Mexico here — don’t you think that you should back up these claims with real, meaningful data to give your bill some credibility and to make sure that the use of this word will not be challenged?

[English]

Senator Pate: I absolutely agree, and if you believe that any of what I have said or any of the documentation is inaccurate, I would welcome you to show me that evidence.

(On motion of Senator Duncan, for Senator Jaffer, debate adjourned.)

The Senate proceeded to consideration of the second report (interim) of the Committee of Selection, entitled Duration of membership on committees, presented in the Senate on December 2, 2021.