The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Honourable senators, it being 5:15 p.m. I must interrupt the proceedings, pursuant to rule 9-6. The bells will ring to call in the senators for the taking of a deferred vote at 5:30 p.m. on the second reading of Bill C-18, An Act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

Call in the senators.

On the Order:

Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Harder, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Bellemare, for the second reading of Bill C-18, An Act respecting online communications platforms that make news content available to persons in Canada.

Senator Plett: I find that strange: “Don’t ask me the question; ask somebody else.”

Every day, it seems there are new revelations about foreign interference by Beijing and what the Prime Minister knew. The Prime Minister has always said there is a wall between him and the Trudeau Foundation. Last week, La Presse reported that one of the senior staffers in the Prime Minister’s Office reached out to the Trudeau Foundation in November 2016 regarding the “Chinese donation.” That’s a pretty thin wall, leader. A former board member told La Presse last week that the so-called political polarization reason the foundation and the Prime Minister gave for the resignations was — wait for this — “a bunch of lies.”

Leader, Canadians deserve the truth. There has to be a public inquiry. Clearly, the Prime Minister doesn’t agree or he would have called one by now.

But what excuse does his cabinet have? Why can’t they see that a full public inquiry is the only right thing to do at this point? Finally, leader, what do you call someone who spews a bunch of lies? What kind of language would you consider that to be?

Hon. Donna Dasko: My question is for the Government Representative in the Senate.

Senator Gold, members of the Canadian Museums Association are in Ottawa over the next two days as part of their 2023 Hill Day to speak with parliamentarians and others. The association includes many representatives from my city of Toronto, which is the home of fabulous galleries and museums.

However, people I know in the museum community are greatly concerned about the continuing turmoil at the National Gallery of Canada. As the search for a new, permanent director continues, my question to you today builds on the question posed to you by Senator Bovey last December, and that question is: Can you confirm that the new, permanent director will have two essential qualifications — an advanced degree in art history or in contemporary expression, and a career in directing and running a major gallery or museum? Thank you.

Senator Dasko: Given that the new, permanent director was expected to be announced by March 30, are you able to confirm today the date on which the announcement of this person will be made? Thank you.

Senator Dagenais: The government’s dental care program is going to become a bottomless pit and, as I’ve already said, it is even causing a shortage of dentists.

All that aside, do you think that it is right — and I won’t presume to refer to the Prime Minister’s chronic recklessness here — that Quebec families can pocket $630 from the federal government, even though the provincial government is already paying for dental care for children under the age of 10?

It seems to me that we ought to be able to harmonize our policies at some basic level. Isn’t there a way to harmonize policies in order to try to save Canadians’ money?

Senator Gold: Thank you for the question. My answer is twofold. First, if my memory serves me well, the Prime Minister says that he is open to discussing a bilateral agreement with his counterpart, the Government of Quebec, given that Quebec has a program that doesn’t necessarily exist anywhere else.

We will closely monitor that process and how the national program will be received in Quebec, and the amounts paid out.

That said, I must emphasize the importance of this dental program for thousands upon thousands of Canadian families, young people and not-so-young people, who don’t have access to dental care and who don’t have the means to obtain dental care, which is vital to physical and mental health. This is an important program for Canadians, and the Canadian government is proud to move forward with this program.

[English]

Hon. Claude Carignan: Honourable senators, this morning, Radio-Canada’s website had a headline about the Trudeau family vacationing with wealthy Trudeau Foundation donors.

This time, it wasn’t on the Aga Khan’s island, in London or Tofino; it was in Jamaica. Canadian citizens paid more than $160,000 of taxpayers’ money to provide security and other things that are required for the Trudeau family’s trip. Moreover, these costs don’t include the Challenger, which costs taxpayers a minimum of $10,000 per hour.

I checked Expedia’s website, and there are 5,105 hotels in Jamaica. Why did the Prime Minister choose the one owned by a wealthy contributor to the Trudeau Foundation?

Senator Miville-Dechêne: I think legislation certainly needs to be as clear as possible, but it also needs to send a clear message. What came out in our hearings and, as you know, was very telling, is the fear that content creators have, those who create user-generated content. They are afraid that they are going to be covered under Bill C-11.

Unfortunately, the amendment as it’s currently drafted leaves a huge amount of uncertainty, particularly in terms of who will be covered. Is it anyone who makes money? Everyone knows that user-generated content allows small creators to earn an income.

How do you plan on reassuring those creators, considering they have been very clear about their fears? We’re talking about people who want to make a living. Just like the musicians who are opposed to this amendment, content creators exist and they feel that this amendment is unclear. Personally, I have to tell you that in reading it, I don’t find it particularly clear either.

Senator Housakos: Senator Gold, I’ve been now in this place for 15 years, and excuse me if I am a little skeptical of taking any government at face value. I as a legislator would like to see things in the law in black and white.

You pointed out as well that we should just have faith that this is going to be done and that we are here to make sure that we overlook and carry out our responsibilities, as you said in your speech, as legislators to make sure the government does what they say. Don’t you also agree that we are passing a law here that has not been supported by a regulatory framework? We’re leaving it to the CRTC, as you said in your speech. They will be carrying out public consultations in order to set the regulatory framework. What happens in case this regulatory framework isn’t consistent with the commitments you highlighted in your speech? What are our options as parliamentarians at that point with this bill to do a follow-up in a thorough way?

Senator Gold: You having been here for 15 years and I for 6 and a half years, we know that following Royal Assent there is a regulatory process. Following Royal Assent, there will be a process around the policy direction. I outlined that process to you and I will remind you it involves public consultation, public input, both at the front end and at the back end when the CRTC receives the public consultation. I will also remind colleagues — and as chair of the committee that studied the bill at length, Senator Housakos, you will also know — that the bill provides for reports to Parliament and parliamentary oversight and was improved in that regard by Senator Quinn’s amendment.

We have many tools in our arsenal, but the arsenal that we carry with us is a sense of what our role and responsibility are here in the Senate. Ninety-nine per cent of this bill was approved by this place and the other place. Of the 26 amendments, 20 were approved by three parties in the other place. This bill has been studied in this place and the other place extensively. The time has come now to recognize this is an important and good bill. The government has made firm, solid public commitments, and the text of the law is also clear with regard to what it applies to and what it does not apply to. If that is not enough for those in this chamber who in good faith want to see this bill succeed and pass, then I have run out of things to say.

If you want to kill the bill, there are lots of ways to do it. We have seen it in the past. We know how to do that. We can delay it. We can hope for another election. We can get it buried, and it will die on the Order Paper. But for those of us who believe that this is a good bill, a bill that has been improved by our amendments, and who believe that the elected members of the House of Commons have done their responsible duty and taken us seriously and have approved 20 out of 26 amendments, the time now is to give it Royal Assent.

Senator Wallin: The reason we are all asking you questions that seem similar is because it is not clear in the bill. Senator Miville-Dechêne and Senator Simons presented language — a compromise — inside our own committee. They presented language that would have given the government the right and the opportunity to be clear about what you promised and what they promised publicly, on television shows and in front of the committee.

If you really believe it, then put it in the bill. That’s why we keep asking the same question. A promise in a response to questions and in appearances on television is not law, and we would like to see it written in the bill.

Senator Gold: Senator Wallin, I appreciate your question very much. I answered it as best I could in the speech. I’m not going to reread it. The amendment, according to the government and according to the majority of the members of the House of Commons, did not achieve its objectives and poses a risk of undermining the central objectives of the act.

This was much debated in the committee and debated in the Senate. The Senate passed the amendment. The House respectfully disagrees. I’ve tried to provide the reasons why the House disagrees.

I’ve also tried to provide reasons which I know you will take seriously. Whether you agree with me or not, that’s your prerogative. Notwithstanding this disagreement, notwithstanding your disappointment or the fact that you do not necessarily find my answers compelling, we will agree to disagree and to pass this important bill for the benefit of the Canadian cultural community and Canadians in general.

The Hon. the Speaker pro tempore: Do you have a question?

Senator Cardozo: Yes. My question is this։ Given that we don’t know everything about the technology that will roll out year by year, is this not the better way to do it? Should we not leave it to the CRTC to deal with those details and update those regulations every few years?

Senator Quinn: Senator Gold, really the focus of my comment is that all of the inputs received, et cetera, from people across the country — people who have appeared before the committee, people who have not appeared before the committee but have communicated with senators, across the spectrum — deserve to hear more directly than the normal process. You’re right: There are all kinds of things that are published and put on websites and whatnot, but the people who have been communicating with us may not be the people who deal with these issues in that format, if you can understand what I’m saying. They’re not used to the legislative process.

Should the government not have a proactive strategy to communicate with those people who have made their views on proposed section 4.2 explicitly known?

Hon. Leo Housakos: Not to belabour the point, but user-generated content is definitely scoped into this bill. That was the opinion of the chairman of the CRTC when he testified before our committee. That was the opinion of the legal expert of Heritage Canada who, on numerous occasions, was asked directly about the language that Senator Cardozo referred to. It is clear that the government is refusing to tighten that language and accept reasonable amendments that state, in black and white in law, that user-generated content will be excluded. Nonetheless, I also want to correct a couple of things.

In his exchange with you, Senator Gold, Senator Cardozo highlighted really what the problem is between those who are fine with the bill and those who are against the bill. I know that the CRTC has the authority to make regulations because the law that we’re about to pass and the government wants to pass is giving that authority. In the old Broadcasting Act and the current Broadcasting Act, our colleague Senator Cardozo is right: The government and Canadian Heritage can not only influence the regulatory framework; they can give directives and overrule the CRTC. That’s precisely why when you have laws like the Broadcasting Act that leave this Parliament and become law, there have to be safeguards to make sure whoever is in government has parameters that they have to work within that we parliamentarians give them. And if we’re negligent in our responsibility in making laws that are clear, that’s when, of course, problems can occur.

Now, in terms of the regulatory framework, it is so customary on bills that are technical — like Bill C-11 — for governments to attach regulatory frameworks in advance. With Bill C-10, the precursor bill of Bill C-11, if you remember, at the final stages of that bill, under a lot of pressure from work in this chamber, the government came out with a framework at that particular point in time. It wasn’t a very good one, but they came up with a framework. It doesn’t require tossing it to the CRTC for two years.

But I don’t want to digress. I want to get to my follow-up question because there are a lot more problems with this bill than just user-generated content.

When we’re reforming the Broadcasting Act, one of the main pillars that needs to be reformed, which was not even looked at in this bill, is CanCon. My question to you, government leader, is the following: How could a story written by Margaret Atwood, The Handmaid’s Tale, with Canadian actors, filmed in Canada, with a Canadian director and so on and so forth — how could something like that, in the eyes of this current bill as we want to pass it, not qualify as Canadian content?

Senator Housakos: We tried to move amendments at committee dealing with Canadian content, and they were rejected. They were rejected and, by the same token, it’s part of the parliamentary process. Now, again, if you don’t want to answer the question, it speaks volumes, government leader, how the government is negligent in doing an in-depth dive on dealing with Canadian broadcasting.

Senator Gold: Thank you, Senator Wallin. We know this. The Charter itself, in section 1, provides that rights and freedoms that are set out, and otherwise given an expansive interpretation at first blush, are subject to “such reasonable limits . . . as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.” For the Attorney General to remind senators and legislators, all of whom have an obligation to understand and apply the Charter in our own work, is simply — if I can paraphrase the late, great Alan Borovoy, the former general counsel of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association, and a mentor and friend to me — “a penetrating glimpse into the obvious.”

Yes, rights are not absolute. They’re balanced against other rights, and they’re subject to reasonable limits. Our statute books are full of examples of this kind.

Senator Gold: This was language that our office here in the Senate developed. You will know now for the last three years that when I am asked questions in Question Period, I answer on behalf of the government. It’s not my role to answer in my personal capacity. You can fairly assume that the language that we developed here represents a position that is acceptable to the government. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have put it in a motion.

As the Senate, we have the power to amend motions, to vote for them or reject them. I have no comment on your question. There have been no — and even if there were, it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to share this.

I am saying that I believe that this motion, the heart of which is to propose that we accept the message from the House — the addition that we included was to give the Senate the ability to be on record in this motion for the motion to be read in the House of Commons so that the members of the House understand what the position of the Senate is and that we take note.

We think that this will strengthen the assurances and, back to Senator Quinn’s point, we hope that it will provide some additional assurances to those who are still skeptical of governments. That is a feature of our modern politics.

It will also figure into interpretations. As one of our former colleagues reminded us regularly, courts and others take legislative history, and especially Senate pronouncements, into account when they are interpreting legislation. I think this adds one more element into the point that I have been trying to make that the government is seriously not involved and has no intention of scoping in user-generated content.