Senator Wallin: The reason we are all asking you questions that seem similar is because it is not clear in the bill. Senator Miville-Dechêne and Senator Simons presented language — a compromise — inside our own committee. They presented language that would have given the government the right and the opportunity to be clear about what you promised and what they promised publicly, on television shows and in front of the committee.

If you really believe it, then put it in the bill. That’s why we keep asking the same question. A promise in a response to questions and in appearances on television is not law, and we would like to see it written in the bill.

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question, Senator Wallin. At the risk of repeating myself, the bill is clear that it does not apply, first of all. Second, the fact that the government and two of the opposition parties in the other place disagree with the necessity for this particular amendment does not mean that the government, the members of the other house or the stakeholders do not have legitimate concerns. I tried to express that about this particular amendment.

This is not giving me or anyone else a blank cheque. This is a very complicated, structured piece of legislation that requires — as legislation of this kind does require, and I appeal to those in this room who have experience as we all do or should have with the regulatory process — layers below the legislation. There are regulations and policy directives required in order to take account of emerging trends and technological developments.

This is a good bill. It does not apply to user-generated content. It applies to the platforms when they engage in the broadcasting of commercial programs. The law is clear, the government has been clear and I hope that I have been clear.

Senator Wallin: On that point, in fairness, Senator Gold, you did raise the issue of the constitutional role of the Senate, but that’s for another time.

To stay on topic, I will read the language of your rejection that you’ve shared with us here. The government has rejected the key amendment that we are talking about here on user-generated content:

. . . because this would affect the Governor in Council’s ability to publicly consult on, and issue, a policy direction to the CRTC to appropriately scope the regulation of social media services with respect to their distribution of commercial programs, as well as prevent the broadcasting system from adapting to technological changes over time . . . .

These are your words — the government’s words.

This rationale, of course, makes it quite clear that the government wants the power to continue to direct the CRTC on user content today, and maintain that power into the future. That’s what it states.

Obviously, these questions remain: Why are you so adamant to regulate user content online? What is your fear?

I ask this because in the discussions over Bill C-10, Minister Guilbeault, who was the minister in charge at the time, suggested that he was concerned about the criticisms of the government that he was seeing online. We have heard very clearly from Minister Lametti that he thinks it is okay to restrict rights and freedoms online if the government chooses to legislate in that direction.

Any bill that requires government policy direction to provide guidance on regulating user expression is leaving too much uncertainty on the most fundamental questions of freedoms.

Why does the government insist on having the ability to directly instruct the CRTC on user-generated content — the actual content — when this is supposed to be an arm’s-length institution?

Senator Gold: Again, Senator Wallin, it is not the intention of the government — or of this bill — to regulate user-generated content. It is in response to the concerns expressed, as the government has tried, and continues to try, to clarify — obviously, with not complete success in this chamber, anyway — that the bill does not, and will not, apply to user-generated content. Both the text of the bill and the government’s commitments make that clear.

It is also clear — again, colleagues, you don’t need me to tell you this — that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to every bill. The CRTC is required to take the Charter into account. Freedom of expression is guaranteed in the bill itself, although that is not necessary given the overarching presence of the Charter, and amendments promoting journalistic freedom further emphasize that.

It is not the case, Senator Wallin, with all respect, that the government intends — or wants — to regulate user-generated content. It is trying to provide guidance to the CRTC on how to adapt this bill to the rapidly changing technological environment and, at the same time, provide reassurances to those in our communities who have expressed concerns. As I said, those concerns will be addressed in the policy directive upon Royal Assent.