Hon. Percy E. Downe: Honourable senators, I just want to say a very few words on Bill C-70 on foreign interference. Obviously, I’m no expert on foreign interference or intelligence, but over the years I have been involved a bit in this area. When I had the honour to serve as chief of staff to Prime Minister Chrétien, my very first day, two people from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service came in, sat down and gave me the intelligence reports from Five Eyes. They explained how everything would work, how the documents would come to me. Then they said, “Today, we’ll sit here. You read them, and we’ll take the documents back.” And then they explained what would happen in the future.

I must tell you, I found that pretty exciting as a kid who grew up in Charlottetown watching James Bond movies to be reading this intelligence. After I read — it took me about 10 minutes — I handed the documents back, and I said, “Tell me the procedure. How does it work?” They said, “Well, the documents go to the Clerk of the Privy Council and to you, and then you have to decide what you’re briefing the Prime Minister on.”

At that point the fun left the room because I didn’t fall off a turnip truck last week. I knew the questions would be, “What did you know? When did you know? What did you do when you knew?” So I said, “Give me those documents back. I want to read them again.” Since then, I’ve been involved for two years reading those documents. Later, as many of you know, I had the honour to serve on the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, the first committee, with Senator Lankin, who is still on it, and David McGuinty, who is the chair.

I just want to say a few words, given my questions to Senator Gold. The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians is an outstanding committee. They have one of the best professional staffs I ever encountered in Ottawa. I’m sure they would have considered every word and every sentence in that report, and they would be extremely careful. I think they serve Canadians well.

Having said that, I decided not to go back on the committee. I did not request to go on the committee when my term was up because I found there were two problems: I was concerned about how much the government was redacting when they released the reports. What we submitted and what they edited out I thought was a step too far. And, quite frankly, having been chief of staff to the Prime Minister, they weren’t getting all the intelligence they should have been getting. They were getting enough to satisfy their responsibilities, but the government wasn’t generous in sharing additional intelligence that I think they would have found helpful.

Having said all that, I’m particularly concerned that we address any erroneous information in the study of Bill C-70, on foreign interference. To that end, I want to speak about what Senator Woo said on Monday. I’m going to quote what he said, and then I’m going to quote the judgment of the case in Australia. I think colleagues can determine if there is a difference between what was stated and what the judge in the case said.

I say this because I’ve always been interested in what the Australians have done in foreign interference. I thought they were the leaders on that file. And I thought they had a bigger problem than we did, they had it earlier, and they addressed it quicker. Having said that, they also have an ongoing problem, and I was intrigued when I heard that someone was actually convicted and sent to jail under the act. That’s why I read the court judgment. For those of you who were around when Senator Baker was here, I do not read court judgments as a hobby. This is one of about half a dozen that I’ve read over the years.

I’ll start with what Senator Woo said on Monday. Here is what he said:

A Vietnamese Australian has been sentenced to two years in jail for the act of preparing or planning an act of foreign interference. What was that act? He organized a fundraiser during COVID, raising money from Vietnamese and Indo-Chinese-Australian communities to buy personal protective equipment and other medical supplies, and he donated that money to a hospital. At the ceremony where the donation was made, he invited a politician — I think he was a sitting minister at the time — to stand with him on the stage holding one of these fake cheques for $25,000 Australian. That was used as evidence that this Vietnamese Australian person was cultivating the minister for a future act of foreign interference.

Just think about that. The Australian system is the Australian system, and they have the right to conduct themselves in the way that they want to. But are we going down the road where someone who develops a relationship with a politician or a public official who may have the potential to rise up the ladder sometime in the near or distant future, that that act in itself is a crime of planning or preparing an act of foreign interference? It drives shivers down the spine.

This is what Senator Woo said on Monday.

Colleagues, I want to compare that to what happened in Australia. This person was tried by a judge and jury. I think it was a five-week trial. I’m only going to quote part of the judgment, but here is what the judge said about this situation. This is Australia, and this is the judge in Australia. He said:

As a prominent and long-serving member of the Liberal Party —

— by that he means, of course, the Australian Liberal Party —

— you had previously met with Minister Tudge on 26 July 2018, at his invitation, to discuss immigration policy. Consistent with the jury’s verdict, I am satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that you sought deliberately to use your previous meeting with Minister Tudge as a means of attracting his interest in becoming involved in the donation to the Royal Melbourne Hospital. I am equally satisfied that, on 30 April 2020, you deliberately selected Minister Tudge as a target of the future foreign influence offence precisely because of Minister Tudge’s political power as a Minister in the Australian Federal Government, and because you believed that he could potentially be persuaded to influence Australian Government policy in a manner favourable to the Chinese Communist Party. On your assessment, the attraction of this potential benefit was enhanced by your stated belief that Minister Tudge would, in the future, become the Prime Minister of Australia.

Later he said:

In representing your purposes for the donation as being purely altruistic and genuine, you deceived the intended target, Minister Tudge, as well as members of Minister Tudge’s office staff, members of the Royal Melbourne Hospital associated with the donation, and members of the Oceania Federation who donated funds with no ulterior motive. The prosecution submits that this aspect of your conduct involved a significant breach of the trust of members of the Oceania Federation and of the Liberal Party by using your longstanding affiliation with those bodies as a form of cover in prosecuting the agenda of the Chinese Communist Party. Indeed, as the evidence at the trial amply demonstrated, such covert methodology was a feature of what is known as the United Front Work System, which is employed worldwide by the so-called United Front Work Department which operates under the direction and control of the Chinese Communist Party. I accept those submissions and find the facts that underpin them proved beyond reasonable doubt.

The judge then goes on to say:

I also find to that same standard that you maintained contact prior to and during the offending period with Chinese Communist Party officials both in Australia and overseas. You communicated with them over the encrypted WeChat application, including with officials whom you knew or believed were operatives of the Chinese Government Ministry of State Security. The extent to which you were trusted by the Chinese Communist Party was evidenced by your relationship with the Chinese consulate and was reflected in your invitation from the Chinese Communist Party to attend the 70th Anniversary National Day Celebrations in Beijing. You duly attended those celebrations in Beijing on 1 October 2019.

The evidence led at the trial supports the conclusion that the United Front Work System, as operated by the United Front Work Department, is a sophisticated, far-reaching and pervasive foreign influence program. The Prosecution submits that your offending, and your conduct both before and after the period of the offence, suggests that you were an adept exponent of the methodology of that System. You demonstrated an aptitude and enthusiasm for developing relationships with persons of influence in Australia and overseas and for hiding your connections with the Chinese Communist Party behind your roles in apparently innocuous community organisations. The prosecution submits that, in these respects, your offending may be regarded as sophisticated. I accept that submission and find the underlying facts proved beyond reasonable doubt.

The prosecution argued that the accused had been in contact with Chinese state officials. There were various wiretapped phone calls played in court, including one where he was heard telling an associate, “When I do things it never gets reported in the newspaper, but Beijing will know what I’m doing.” They convicted him, and that’s the other side of the story.

Thank you, colleagues.