Thank you, Ms. Mitchell.

We will now have senators engage in questions. Senator Pate, you’re the sponsor of the bill, and I’m going to invite you to go last and mop up if needed. You know how we are at this committee.

Thanks to all of you for being here. My first question is for Ms. Kish from the Canadian Elizabeth Fry Societies. What I would like to get at is, what is your impression is the suitability of the 48-hour limit in the context of extended stays.

Considering that data indicates that between November 2019 and November 2021, about a quarter of the inmates in structured intervention units, or SIUs, were detained for over two months, and 20% stayed in the structured intervention unit for between one and five days, I’m wondering if you think the 48-hour limit set by Bill S-230 for a stay in and is realistic and sufficient to meet the needs of inmates and the management requirements for those SIUs.

Thank you for your excellent question. I do think it’s an important first step. Certainly, right now, restrictive conditions and segregation in all its forms are primarily used as a population management strategy. They’re not resolving the problems they intend to, so yes, I do think it is reasonable. I think that it will push the system to innovate and find different and more meaningful responses, especially, if this bill is to pass, in its capacity for people with identified mental health conditions to be moved out of such systems and into health care systems.

Ms. Latimer, if you have a short answer to add to that.

I think you need to have a continuing judicial review of people being placed in solitary confinement. I think 48 hours is very good for, first of all, testing the grounds on which people were placed in solitary confinement and whether they’re a legitimate vehicle to be used.

Our review is that placement in solitary confinement should never exceed 15 days, but working a lot with males who can be violent, we’re not of the view that we can abolish solitary confinement or administrative segregation, because there are circumstances in which prisoners will hurt each other unless they’re separated from each other. Sometimes that takes more than 48 hours to resolve, but it shouldn’t take more than 15 days.

Thank you.

Back to Ms. Kish, as the Associate Executive Director of the Canadian Elizabeth Fry Societies, how do you assess risks to the safety and well-being of inmates, particularly those who are vulnerable or threatened within the prison population, in the case of delays and processing extension requests by the superior courts for stays in structured intervention units? What urgent protective measures would you recommend for those inmates?

Ms. Campbell, with your experience as former Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate for a very lengthy period of time, I’m wondering if you could share your perspective about the justification of the 48-hour limit in the Structured Intervention Units established by Bill S-230.

We do a lot of work on the ground hosting workshops and bringing in productive conflict resolution tools. The evidence is clear that in incarceration systems designated for women, as Ms. Latimer noted, the realities and contexts are very different than in the men’s sector. We believe that in the existing structure, there are more than enough tools available for Correctional Service Canada to keep people safe in ways that don’t place them in such restrictive conditions. We, as a partner, are committed to continuing to bring in community experts and to support the population to have the skills required to do so without being kept in small cages.

Certainly. I think part of the rationale, and part of the rationale for the decisions which found the administrative segregation regime to violate the Charter, had to do with how people with mental illnesses were treated when they were placed in administrative segregation. Part of what we were led to believe that Bill C-83 would do would be to be vigilant around people’s mental health as they were placed in there, and a significant amount of resources for the entire regime were dedicated to that. I believe Minister Goodale said that there was $450 million dedicated to implementing. We would expect that the appropriate quality of assessors are there to monitor and to take care of people’s mental health.

We wait with interest for the next report from the Structured Intervention Unit Implementation Advisory Panel because it will have a focus on mental health. What I believe, from my experience in talking to people who have experienced it, is that the necessary assessments are not taking place in a way which makes a difference for people.

Do you have something to offer further to that?

We see the problem as being kind of dual-ended. One, all of the people who provide therapeutic and health services within the Correctional Service of Canada are trained in a risk and securities framework. For example, with the recent influx of behavioural counsellors, incarcerated women and gender-diverse people see these individuals as a therapeutic relationship and are often shocked when the same individuals lay disciplinary charges against them. As long as there are lateral and strong relationships between health care providers and the Correctional Service of Canada, we’re going to see mental health integrated into risk frameworks, and duly, from the end of incarcerated people, we see people being afraid to say they’re not okay because historically and persistently, when an individual who is incarcerated indicates that they’re unwell, this is often responded to by reducing their access to everything in prison and then treating their suffering as risk.

I have nothing further to add. I believe Ms. Latimer and Ms. Kish covered this topic well.

Thank you, all.

Ms. Latimer, I was really disturbed to hear you speak about places outside SIUs where people are being kept in what is de facto solitary confinement. Can you tell us what kinds of places, and if they are not in the SIUs, is anyone tracking what’s happening in those informal segregation units?

No. It’s very discouraging that the response to the Charter decisions was not to respect the rights that had been shown as being violated in those decisions. So what we have now is that in structured intervention units, some attention is being paid to how these are implemented. So people are being placed in isolated confinement, and it’s called different things, whether it is the Voluntary Limited Association Range, or just a lockdown on a particular range so no one is getting out, or isolation within a particular cell or observation cells or — you name it. There are a lot of different places in the prison where you’re going to find people in their cells alone for 22 hours a day or more and without getting meaningful human contact.

With the SIU, there are rules and there is oversight. If I’m put in a cell and it’s functionally a segregation unit, is anyone tracking that? Do any of you have reliable data about how many people may be kept in those conditions in a given month or quarter?

No. I don’t think CSC is producing reliable data on that, but it would be very worthwhile to ask them how many people are being detained consistent with the UN definition of solitary confinement, which is 22 hours a day in a cell without meaningful human contact.

Maybe a quick question for each of the three of you. We know that people with mental illness are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Of the people who are being kept in SIUs or other solitary confinement type of situations, what percentage of them would you say, are suffering from a mental illness, whether that’s a psychotic condition, profound depression or suicidal ideation? What percentage would it be?

It would really be difficult to give you an assessment of that because the isolation itself will cause mental illness. There may be people who are — I was talking to one young person who was fine, and within 48 hours in an administrative segregation cell, he was suicidal. So the deterioration of well-being can be very rapid, and it’s — what the isolation does is you start to lose track of what’s real and what’s not real. The line between the unconscious and the conscious mind becomes blurry and you start seeing and hearing things that are not really there.

If you already have a mental health condition that would predispose you, it would be a lot more challenging for you. But it’s challenging for everybody.

I’d invite the others to respond, Ms. Kish first and then Ms. Mitchell, if you would like, on the question of the proportion of inmates in these circumstances who have a mental illness or mental health challenges.