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Feb/9/23 11:15:35 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, typically, I think our answers are supposed to be as long as the questions, which means that I am going to be making another speech given how long my colleague's question was. First of all, I could respond to the member for Drummond that his question does not matter to me one bit either, but I will try to be a little more polite than he is on that front. As I said in my speech, it is clear that the Bloc Québécois wants sovereignty; it is a left-wing party that supports the Parti Québécois. There is no denying it. The Government of Quebec is not the Parti Québécois. The Bloc Québécois does not have the sole authority to speak for all Quebeckers. That is patently untrue. I am a Quebecker and proud of it, as are my Conservative colleagues and even several Liberal members. We are all Quebeckers and we all speak for Quebec. When I make connections between Bloc Québécois positions, I look at their platform and I look at the state of affairs, such as bills C-5, C-75 and C-21. I could go on and name more, but I do not have enough time.

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Mr. Earl Dreeshen (Red Deer—Mountain View, CPC)

Feb/9/23 11:16:33 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I certainly enjoyed the speech from the hon. member. I remember going on international trade missions with the Bloc Québécois back in 2008. Their theory then was one of “I love Canada, I love Quebec; two great countries. Let's move forward”. At that point in time it was made up of the full spectrum from Marxist–Leninists to entrepreneurs. Now those in the Bloc Québécois look at what is happening with the Liberal Party and how it has torn apart the fabric of this country. Their mantra is simply “See, Canada is broken. There's no way that we can be here”. That is why they want to be away from this country. I know that the member had spoken about the spectrum of the Bloc Québécois over a number of years. Could he comment on this?

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Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus

Feb/9/23 11:17:24 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, as I said in my speech, we lived through different times, a different era, with the Bloc Québécois; today, it is a different situation. It is a very left-wing party that all too often supports the positions of the Liberal Party of Canada, which seeks to divide Canadians. The Bloc Québécois is taking advantage of this situation to separate Quebec from Canada. The Conservative Party wants to work on unity despite our differences and to ensure that our country stays together. Yes, we are different. One of the first things I learned upon my election to the House in 2015 was how different life is for my colleagues from the other Canadian provinces. My thought as a Quebecker was that we have our reality, everyone else has theirs, so let us work together on unity.

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Mr. John Nater (Perth—Wellington, CPC)

Feb/9/23 11:18:14 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is indeed an honour and privilege to rise in this House once again and contribute to the debate on today's opposition day motion. I want to begin by talking a little bit about where we are right now in this country. Sadly, we see reports that 67% of Canadians feel that Canada is broken. The challenge is that after eight years of the Liberal government and Prime Minister, we are seeing motions like this, trying to stoke constitutional crises rather than bringing our country together. After eight years of the Liberal government's failures, we are left with the Liberals trying to stoke fears and divisions in this country rather than focusing on the issues that matter to Canadians, to the constituents of important communities such as Perth—Wellington, Oshawa or Cypress Hills—Grasslands. There, they are concerned about the rising cost of living with 40-year-high inflation. When Conservatives have a chance in this House to debate, we raise these issues. Just this week we had an opportunity for all members to pronounce themselves on the carbon tax. What happened? Every other party voted no. They voted against giving Canadians a break. They voted against lowering the cost for Canadians of buying groceries, heating their homes and putting gas in their cars so they can take their kids to school and go to work each and every day, along with issues that we think are important, such as bail reform. Sadly, in this country, in the past year we saw five brave police officers killed in the line of duty. Back in December we saw a police officer in Haldimand—Norfolk killed in the line of duty by an individual who was out on bail. All 13 provincial premiers have called on the government for bail reform. When this House had its opportunity to pronounce itself on bail reform on Monday on our Conservative opposition day—

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The Deputy Speaker

Feb/9/23 11:20:53 a.m.
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On a point of order, the hon. parliamentary secretary to the government House leader.

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Secretary

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux

Feb/9/23 11:20:57 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am raising the issue of relevance. We are debating the notwithstanding clause, the Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is all sorts of room in which the member could provide comment on that. I do not think the member has been even remotely relevant, unless he is suggesting that we use the notwithstanding clause for bail.

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The Deputy Speaker

Feb/9/23 11:21:20 a.m.
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On the same point of order, the hon. member for Barrie—Innisfil.

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Mr. John Brassard

Feb/9/23 11:21:23 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, just because the member does not like what the hon. member is talking about, that does not mean he gets to rise on a point of order. It has to do with the Standing Orders and rules, and I know that you, Mr. Speaker, will rule appropriately.

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The Deputy Speaker

Feb/9/23 11:21:38 a.m.
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I appreciate the interventions. We do give a lot of latitude on bringing people back to the topic at hand, and I am sure the hon. member for Perth—Wellington will find his way there. The hon. member for Perth—Wellington.

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Mr. John Nater

Feb/9/23 11:21:50 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding the fact that the member of the Liberal Party does not like what I am talking about, the fact remains that we are here on an opposition day motion debating a constitutional issue when there are so many other issues that Canadians care about. If the member wants me to talk more about the Constitution and the history of our Constitution, and how we got to the point where we are, I am happy to do that, but I would need his unanimous consent to give me a full hour and a half so that I can debate it in the House in full and at extensive length. However, I will go back to where we are as a country and why we are seeing constitutional divisions being stoked, and why we are seeing issues like this being brought forward in the House of Commons. It is not because Canadians are happy with the status quo; it is quite the contrary. Canadians are concerned about where their country is going when we see violent crime up 32%, and gang-related homicide up 92%. We are seeing highly connected Liberal lobbyists getting rich while everyday, normal Canadians are dealing with 40-year-high inflation and a tripling of the carbon tax. That is the problem we see here in Canada. Let us talk about where Conservatives stand on the rights and freedoms of Canadians. The Conservative Party has always been a champion of the rights and freedoms of Canadians. We need to look no further than the late, great John Diefenbaker, who had that famous quotation: “Parliament is more than procedure—it is the custodian of the nation's freedom.” It falls to us as parliamentarians to stand and defend the rights and privileges of Canadians. Let us remind ourselves that when John Diefenbaker brought in the Canadian Bill of Rights, the Liberal Party members were reluctant supporters of it. If we think back to the late Jack Pickersgill, he was indeed a fervent adversary of John Diefenbaker. Diefenbaker once said, “Parliament, without Pickersgill, would be like hell without the devil.” However, if we reflect on Pickersgill's comments at the time and read one of his quotations, the Liberal Party in fact had to be dragged kicking and screaming to support Diefenbaker's Bill of Rights. In fact, he said, “Human rights, I believed, are likely to be protected more effectively by an elected Parliament than by appointed judges. Despite the misgivings of a few members, we decided in the Liberal caucus we could not afford politically to oppose the principle of a Bill of Rights.” Let us not let the Liberals have a monopoly on protecting the rights and privileges of Canadians. We on the Conservative benches have always stood for the rights and freedoms of Canadians. In fact, our founding principles as a country have recognized the freedoms of Canadians. The freedoms of Canadians did not magically appear in 1982. We were not all of a sudden granted the rights, freedoms and privileges of Canadians magically on that spring day in 1982. We come from a long evolution of constitutional principles in our country, beginning with the Magna Carta and stretching to the current day. When we are talking about the motion before us, when we are talking about the divisions that are being stoked, let us remember where we stand as parliamentarians. We stand in this place on behalf of all citizens, on behalf of all Canadians in this country as part of a unified country, recognizing that there are differences within our country. Let us not forget that it was under the leadership of Prime Minister Stephen Harper that it was recognized, by a motion in this place, that the Québécois form a nation within a united Canada, recognizing that special history, that special, unique culture the Québécois bring to our country, and celebrating that culture, but nonetheless recognizing and reaffirming that it is within a united Canada, a united country. That is part of the history of our Conservative movement: recognizing that there are differences, but that those differences contribute to our country. I would like to quote George-Étienne Cartier, one of this country's founders. Monsieur Cartier said: Distinctions of this kind would always exist. [Diversity seems] to be the order of the physical world and of the moral world, as well as in the political world. But with regard to the objection...that a great nation could not be formed because Lower Canada was in great part French and Catholic, and Upper Canada was British and Protestant, and [the maritime provinces] were mixed, it was [completely] futile.... In our [Confederation] we should have Catholic and Protestant, English, French, Irish and Scotch, and each by his efforts and his success would increase the prosperity and glory of the new Confederacy. That is what this House ought to represent. It ought to represent a diversity of opinion, a diversity of background and a diversity of thought, but together as a Parliament representing Canadians. We must now and always stand for the rights and freedoms of Canadians. We as Conservatives will always stand on the side of the hard-working Canadian families that are working hard each and every day to provide for their families.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Feb/9/23 11:28:10 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, on that note, the member says the Conservatives will always stand for the freedom and rights of Canadians. Would that very same principle he spoke about apply also to the Province of Ontario when it did a pre-emptive use of the notwithstanding clause to limit labour negotiations? Does he believe that was an appropriate use of the notwithstanding clause by Ontario, in its pre-emptive way?

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Mr. John Nater

Feb/9/23 11:28:45 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, another important feature the Conservative Party believes in is the separation of powers, where each province has the right to do as it sees fit within provincial jurisdiction. We have always respected, as the Conservative Party, the rights of the provinces in their sole jurisdictions, so if the member has concerns about a provincial issue, he ought to run in that provincial legislature and bring his concerns to that place. We have rights and freedoms, and we have safeguards within each of those. The member will know full well that the case in question was withdrawn by the province in question. What is more, section 33 does provide a five-year sunset clause, wherein the people's elected representatives in each of the provinces have the right to pronounce or re-pronounce on a matter that falls under section 33 of the Constitution Act of 1982.

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Mr. Yves Perron (Berthier—Maskinongé, BQ)

Feb/9/23 11:29:41 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, every time we have an opposition day, I am rather surprised to hear the Conservatives lecturing us about how there are other subjects that we should be talking about, like inflation. Meanwhile, I think they spent seven of their opposition days talking about inflation without proposing any solutions whatsoever. All they did was repeat the same sound bites all day long. They are in no position to be lecturing us. The issue we are raising today is fundamental. I would like my colleague to understand that. He is talking about a great big united nation where everyone can affirm their differences. Well, actually, there is a tool in the contract that we had shoved down our throats to preserve Quebec's distinctiveness, and it is called the notwithstanding clause. The government is trying to change the nature of the contract that Quebec never signed but that we are forced to live with. With all due respect, I do not want the Liberals coming to me and asking me to recognize that their contract is legitimate because I will have some choice words for them if they do. However, I will keep those words to myself since we are in a Parliament. I am asking the Conservatives to support our motion. If they do not, then they are basically saying that it is okay for the government to spend thousands of dollars on legal fees for the next 10 years until these laws are recognized and operational, which will make things even messier than they are now, if that is even possible.

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Mr. John Nater

Feb/9/23 11:31:04 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I believe there is an issue that must be raised. Let us be clear. We in the Conservative Party believe that there are important issues in our country. In our view, inflation is the most important challenge at this time for Canadians and for Quebeckers. With respect to the Bloc Québécois motion, it is a question of facts. The Constitution is clear on the provinces. It states: Parliament or the legislature of a province may expressly declare in an Act of Parliament or of the legislature, as the case may be, that the Act or a provision thereof shall operate notwithstanding a provision included in section 2 or sections 7 to 15 of this Charter. The Bloc is asking us to vote on a question of fact. The facts are clear. It is in the Constitution. We believe what is written in the Constitution.

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Mr. Colin Carrie (Oshawa, CPC)

Feb/9/23 11:32:31 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I am very concerned when we see the Liberal Party of Canada aligning its ideology with the Bloc Québécois. They are very divisive. The Bloc, at least, is clear about it, but I would like to remind the House that there has never been a constitutional crisis under the Conservative Party when the Conservative Party has been in government. Now we see the Bloc and the Liberals working together so they do not have to talk about their miserable eight years and their poor record for the Canadian and Quebec people. I would like my colleague to talk about this dangerous game that the Liberals and the Bloc are playing in regard to Canadian unity.

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Mr. John Nater

Feb/9/23 11:33:21 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would agree with my colleague's comments. This is a dangerous game when the Liberal Party and the Bloc are stoking divisions within our country rather than bringing the country together on issues that matter to all Canadians.

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Mr. Alexandre Boulerice (Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, NDP)

Feb/9/23 11:33:42 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time with my hon. colleague from Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke. First, in the wake of yesterday's tragedy in a Laval day care, I would like to take a moment to express my thoughts for the children who were victims of a senseless and horrific act, as well as for their parents and families. My thoughts are also with the employees of the day care. I think we need to reflect collectively on the numerous mental health issues. Finally, I hope we will have more details in the next few days. With that said, I want to start by saying something that may surprise many. I want to thank the Bloc Québécois for introducing their motion on this opposition day. This is not something I usually say, and some may find it a bit funny. However, I think this is a fundamental debate, in the first sense of the word, since we are talking about the fundamental rights and freedoms of the citizens we represent. This allows us to have a debate about our vision of democracy, a legal, constitutional and political debate, almost a philosophical one. It is important to have this kind of debate in Parliament, and it is also a discussion and a debate for the whole civil society to have. It is a reflection on the actions of our legislatures which also have very tangible consequences in people's lives. We are not building castles in the air or having a disagreement about opposing views. This debate is about the use of a legitimate provision that exists, but that has consequences for people. We must not forget that and we must take it into consideration. The notwithstanding clause is a compromise. We know about Quebec's exclusion during the night of the long knives. We are not going to dwell on that. It was appalling, especially for René Lévesque and all of Quebec. There were negotiations concerning the notwithstanding clause. There is no denying it, it is true. However, as is the case for any measure, its use can be good or not. I think that in the past, it was put to good use in the case of Quebec's Charter of the French Language, which, following challenges, was able to benefit from the notwithstanding clause. This also resulted in public debate and review by some courts of the use of this provision. In this case, the notwithstanding clause was used for a common good that stood above others: defending the French language in Quebec in a minority situation in North America. I believe that what is known as Bill 101 has been broadly accepted in Quebec 40 or 50 years after it was passed, no matter who we talk to. Does this mean that the notwithstanding clause can be used for anything and everything? There is no such thing as absolute. Just as freedom of speech is not absolute, the use of the notwithstanding clause should not be absolute. That is the NDP's view, as progressives. Besides, it is not up to nine Supreme Court judges alone to decide what the criteria or conditions for its use should be. That is why I want to emphasize that this must be a public debate that occurs within our society as a whole. Determining when this provision should be used is part of a healthy and legitimate democratic discussion. Let me remind the House that it was initially meant to be used exceptionally, almost as a last resort. Today, we see several legislative assemblies, not just the Quebec National Assembly, using it repeatedly, perhaps even abusively, systematically—my colleagues in the Bloc will not necessarily like that last word—but also preventively, which is extremely troubling. We must ask ourselves whether legislators can, at any time and without ample justification, suspend most rights and freedoms, which are supposed to be protected. Should legislators not be required to give very good reasons to justify its use and to ensure that they can successfully face a court challenge? Otherwise that would mean that a majority Parliament could do anything and everything, in terms of violating fundamental rights, at any time and without justification. That is something to think about. I know this drives my colleagues in the Bloc Québécois crazy, but French philosopher Albert Camus said, “Democracy is not the law of the majority but the protection of the minority.” It is a conception of the fundamental rights that must be a bulwark against a wholesale, unrestricted use of a notwithstanding clause that suspends the rights of citizens. It is a bulwark that was used in the past as a legal and permanent protection and has played a role in favour of the right of association, women's right to abortion and the rights of same-sex couples. We have two extremes. On the one hand, we have Parliament, which is an expression of democracy, and on the other hand, the rule of law and charters that protect citizens. There is a dialogue between the two. These charters are not just the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There is also the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms, which came before the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Let us not forget that. Then there is civil society and the media. We have to remember that the clause is to be used in exceptional circumstances. It was not intended to be used pre-emptively. I want to quote some of the judges in Ford. Justice Jacques said that the exercise of the section 33 power must come within the basic principles that define our society. He said that its use deprives the citizen of constitutional legal recourse against encroachment on a right guaranteed by the Constitution, thereby limiting the citizen to only political recourse, meaning that if the people are unhappy, they just have to oust the government. This is a bit of a tautology, because it is the government itself, through its majority, that brought in the notwithstanding clause. This means that more than just political recourse is needed. In the case of Quebec, it should also be noted that the Superior Court recently wrote that by definition, in a society concerned about respecting the fundamental rights it grants to its members, the notwithstanding clause should be used sparingly and with caution. It added that some may think that its use by the Quebec legislature in this case trivializes it, especially since the clause was used even before there were any legal arguments as to its constitutionality. Pre-emptive use shuts down all discussion and debate and hinders the court's ability to defend fundamental rights. Justice Blanchard of the Superior Court went on to say that since this involves overriding fundamental rights and freedoms, basic respect for those rights and freedoms should be an argument in favour of a more targeted use of this power, which, after all, should remain exceptional. It should remain exceptional when used to suspend people's rights and freedoms, but it should also be used exceptionally when it comes to attacking workers' rights. We have seen Saskatchewan and, more recently, Ontario pre-emptively use the notwithstanding clause to suspend the rights of workers to use pressure tactics and freely negotiate their working conditions and employment contracts. In Ontario, we are talking about 55,000 poorly paid professionals in the education sector who have every right to demand better working conditions and wages. We saw a Conservative government come in and attack the labour movement, trying to break the rights of these workers with what we believe to be a misuse of the notwithstanding clause. I think this discussion is important because we see this slippery slope and how things are sliding. As a union activist, as a leftist, as a supporter of workers' rights, I think we have to ask ourselves whether the notwithstanding clause can be used to attack workers' fundamental rights, their working conditions and the fact that they are demanding a better life. I think it has been the aim of the social movement for many years to promote the best possible working and living conditions, and to fight poverty and injustice. The improper use of the notwithstanding clause in this area undermines workers' fundamental right to freedom of association and collective bargaining. It is good to question the conditions for the invocation and implementation of this clause, because it is not just limited to Quebec issues; it is an attack on the labour movement, citizens and all workers. That is why we should be asking this fundamental question.

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Mr. Han Dong (Don Valley North, Lib.)

Feb/9/23 11:43:40 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, we are debating a very interesting topic this morning, and I just listened to the remarks from my NDP colleague. I remember in 2018, the newly elected Ontario provincial government decided to hold the municipal election in the fall of the same year. I think it was maybe a couple of days before the writ dropped for the election when it decided to slash the council seats by half. At the time, the government was trying to use the notwithstanding clause. That is kind of ironic to me, because an election is an opportunity to hear what the people want in their government, but it was using the notwithstanding clause to slash these council seats by half, despite the legal minds saying that it was an infringement on democracy and the rights of people. I would like to hear my NDP colleague's comments on this.

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Mr. Alexandre Boulerice

Feb/9/23 11:44:41 a.m.
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That is indeed a good example, Mr. Speaker. I remember that somewhat unfortunate episode involving Toronto city council where the misuse of the notwithstanding clause undermined the rights of Torontonians to have adequate or proper representation by what they considered a suitable number of city councillors. Was that what the provincial representatives intended when, in 1982, they called for a notwithstanding clause to be able to occasionally be exempted from the application of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms? I do not believe this was their intent. It is fine, in my opinion, to have this discussion today on the conditions for its use. Is there a real and urgent need? Is it for the greater good or is it being abused to erode fundamental rights? Let us have this discussion. We should not be afraid to have it.

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Mr. Jeremy Patzer (Cypress Hills—Grasslands, CPC)

Feb/9/23 11:45:48 a.m.
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Mr. Speaker, my colleague finished his speech by saying that this issue is bigger than Quebec, and he is absolutely right. What he is failing to acknowledge or address is that this issue of the use of the notwithstanding clause quite often stems from the Prime Minister. The use of the notwithstanding clause has spiked since 2017, and the common denominator is the very divisive Prime Minister, yet this member continues to prop the Prime Minister up. I am wondering if the member, at any point in time, will withdraw his support for this tired and corrupt Liberal government so we can address the issues affecting Canadians.

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