44th Parl. 1st Sess.
December 11, 2023 11:00AM
- Dec/11/23 8:42:42 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I heard my colleague talk about the housing challenges facing indigenous peoples.
I spoke about the overrepresentation of indigenous women and girls among the victims of domestic violence, but can it be normal, in 2023, that there should also be such a significant overrepresentation of indigenous persons when it comes to homelessness?
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- Dec/11/23 8:44:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the opportunity to stand and speak about Indigenous Services and the failures within that department. It is always a pleasure. I will be splitting my time with the member for Peace River—Westlock and I look forward to hearing his wise words as well.
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- Dec/11/23 8:44:52 p.m.
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We are here tonight to discuss Indigenous Services and how, in the Conservatives' opinion, it is failing indigenous people right across this country. What seems to be the constant theme with this department, backed up by the Parliamentary Budget Officer and reinforced by the Auditor General, is that the government is spending more, but achieving less, and the departmental targets reflect those reports.
The department itself is hitting less than 20% of its annual targets. These are targets set by the department itself, but it seems to have an issue with achieving the targets. Indigenous people on the ground expecting a service or level of care are not getting it. We are hearing that over and over again. Not only that, the cost of living crisis that we are dealing with is exacerbating the problem.
Today we heard of another leader within the provincial government, Premier-Elect Simpson, who is now calling for the elimination of the carbon tax, or at least a carve-out, in the Northwest Territories. This is on top of the 133 chiefs across Ontario who are taking the government to court seeking relief. It amplifies the fact that not only is Indigenous Services failing at what it does, but indigenous people are not better off because of the government. The policies are failing and indigenous people want relief. These communities want the cost of their goods and services to come down, not continue to go up.
I will go over some of the Auditor General's reports, which said that ISC failed to provide support first nations communities need to manage emergencies, such as floods and wildfires; actions were reactive instead of preventive, despite first nations communities themselves laying out an action plan; indigenous-led projects were ignored by the department; ISC did not implement a risk-based approach to manage emergencies, which was required under the Emergency Management Act; it did not use information about risks faced by first nations and the capacity of first nations to respond to those emergencies; ISC spent 3.5 times more on responding to emergencies than on supporting first nations communities, in fact, preparing them with 112 unfunded infrastructure projects, 74 of which had been in the department's backlog for more than five years. That list goes on and on. Unfortunately, there are people on the ground in communities that are suffering because of it.
When we have a department that continues to gobble up more and more dollars and does not get results, where are the objectives for reconciliation being met? Unfortunately, people are suffering because of it.
I am looking at the ISC's core responsibilities. Under “Services and Benefits to Individuals”, there is no change in the results. Results, in some cases, are six years old, yet we seen an increase in staffing planned, 1,700 to 1,824, an increase of 7%, but again there is no improvement in services. There is a decrease in services, an increase in the cost of living, indigenous communities are looking for help and asking for relief in housing, health care and the justice portfolio. We have studied all this at committee, but the problems continue to get worse.
A pet peeve of mine, when we were looking at non-insured health benefits, is that ISC is still using a fax machine, if anyone can believe it, to fax prescriptions to the department. It is absolutely incredible that this continues to go on. We hear about this at committee, and people on the ground are hurting because of it.
Let us axe the tax for farmers, first nations and families forever and help indigenous people looking to ISC for help.
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- Dec/11/23 8:49:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I have a great deal of respect for the hon. member who just spoke. However, one of the most important pieces of indigenous relations to this country is ensuring that one understands the principles one is advocating.
The member and the other Conservative member earlier are so narrowly focused on the outcomes of their carbon tax debate that they have not even mentioned clean water issues on reserves today. They have not mentioned the genocide facing the 2SLGBTQI+ community and murdered and missing women. They have not mentioned the infrastructure gap. We are left to beg the question: What are the priorities of the Conservative Party if not to recognize the treaty and aboriginal and indigenous inherent rights that are found in this country and in our Constitution?
To the member's point about the carbon tax specifically, it is important that he recognizes that federal taxation in Canada writ large should ultimately be exempted on first nations reserves, which is something that is found within the Indian Act.
If the member was so concerned about affordability on reserves, would he agree that it is time to ensure that first nations have true partnership in relation to all resource projects, including when they say no to them?
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- Dec/11/23 8:50:58 p.m.
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Madam Chair, there is a lot to unpack there, but I actually did mention it. Unfortunately, I only had five minutes, but I did cover health and justice specifically. We did a study in committee talking about indigenous policing. We are actually working on things as a party to address that. So, I disagree with the member; it was outlined.
On resource projects, yes, we would like to see more built across Canada, but in order to do that, we do need to have first nations involvement, and we are already seeing it right across the country. We are seeing it with Trans Mountain and others where there are equity stakes in these projects. First nations themselves are getting involved in these projects and actually creating wealth opportunity for their nations. This is something that, yes, in some cases we have done right and some cases we have done wrong, but let us improve on that, get better and come together as a country.
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- Dec/11/23 8:52:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I appreciate the work of the member for Peace River—Westlock. He is a member of the indigenous and northern affairs committee, and I enjoy working with him and his additions to the debate that he is bringing to us today.
Housing is something that we have heard is an ongoing issue with indigenous communities, first nations, in particular, and Inuit as well. We know that housing is often cramped and in need of repair, and that a lot of that was exacerbated during the pandemic where people were forced to live in conditions that were greatly unacceptable. ISC, unfortunately, has yet to improve on those actual outcomes. So, most of the discussion that we are bringing on this side is about actually getting results.
The bar is not how much money we spend; yes, it is an important piece, but if we are spending a lot of money and getting no results, something is wrong. So, we need to actually have that conversation about how we get better outcomes in this picture.
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- Dec/11/23 8:53:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I deeply respect my colleague.
I am very curious, because the member mentioned that there are equity relationships where indigenous communities are buying up equity stakes. One of the things that is required for that are loan guarantees. In the fall economic statement, that was one of the principle features of our economic reconciliation. I was wondering why the member opposite and his party voted against that measure when it was brought forward last Thursday and Friday.
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- Dec/11/23 8:57:29 p.m.
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Madam Chair, on a point of order, we are having a take-note debate tonight about Indigenous Services Canada and it would be nice if the member actually spoke about that. That is what we are here to talk about.
It is a critical life-and-death matter for indigenous people in this country. He could respect indigenous people by at least referring to them in his speech.
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- Dec/11/23 9:01:02 p.m.
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Madam Chair, the member kept on talking about all the doubling of this and doubling of that, but key, critical investments from Indigenous Services Canada to tribal councils did not double. In fact, it did not double under the Conservatives' watch when the Harper government was in power. The Conservatives cut that funding dramatically. Between the Liberals and the Conservatives, the governments cut that funding in half over 20 years.
These are critical services that the tribal councils, including the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council in my riding, deliver for women, girls and elders, as well as for education and for health care, which are essential services to keep them safe and healthy. The government has failed in its promises. Indigenous peoples and tribal councils had hope when the current Liberal government was coming to power. Do the Conservatives regret cutting these essential services and funding to tribal councils, and not just the Nuu-Chah-Nulth Tribal Council, but tribal councils right across this country?
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- Dec/11/23 9:03:52 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I thought the member was going to talk about Bill C-53.
Nonetheless, I would note that the Alberta government has been one of the few governments in this country to put together a fund so that indigenous communities could have an equity stake. They can use that fund to pursue equity stakes in major energy projects. This has brought economic reconciliation to first nations across northern Alberta, ensuring that all Canadians get to participate in the economy and ensuring prosperity for everyone.
When people can take home a powerful paycheque, it gives them the freedom to live their life in the way they feel is necessary. I will never apologize for ensuring that we can have full economic reconciliation in this country.
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- Dec/11/23 9:04:41 p.m.
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Madam Chair, this member has been here a long time, and he should know and understand that the colleagues I have, my indigenous brothers and sisters and my relatives across northern Alberta are in a particular condition of poverty right now. That poverty has long been represented in the province, and people's needs have not been served by the ill wishes of corporations that continue to take our lands for granted and continue to pollute our waters.
As a matter of fact, we have seen some of the largest oil spills just recently. Chief Allan Adam has made those spills very clear. In Cold Lake, for example, we are seeing the seeping of their tailings pond there as well.
The issue that is most important and on the top of first nations' minds is this: When faced with these terrible circumstances related to our land, the members only speak about their own interests, their interests for their political, narrow power grab. When it comes to first nations, Métis and Inuit people in this country, we never hear about the constitutional rights that these people have.
Could the member verify that there are, in fact, treaty rights in Alberta, and those rights are directly impacted by the illegal sovereignty act?
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- Dec/11/23 9:06:47 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would first like to acknowledge that we are gathered on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.
Earlier today, I joined the Minister of Indigenous Services as she introduced Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands.
This bill is an important step toward ensuring that all Canadians have access to safe, clean drinking water.
First nations have long called for legislation that affirms their inherent rights, recognizes their stewardship in keeping water clean and meets first nations' needs. This bill is part of our government's commitment to establishing new proposed safe drinking and waste-water legislation in consultation and in conjunction with first nations.
It closely aligns with the ongoing efforts of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada to strengthen relationships between the federal government and indigenous people. This collaboration with CIRNAC is essential in addressing the broader context of indigenous rights and self-determination.
On a personal note, upon my appointment as the Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations, I emphasized that my contribution to this role stems from a lived experience, a profound understanding of what survival entails, the impact of oppression and the enduring effects of colonialism.
I bring this perspective in the most personal and heartfelt manner, and I am committed to working in partnership with indigenous communities to walk the path of reconciliation, which includes improving water and waste-water operations. On this note, I would like to thank my colleagues opposite for their incredible advocacy and their persistent efforts to keep the government accountable.
First nations have put in the hard work required, with support from Indigenous Services Canada, to lift 143 long-term drinking water advisories.
We recognize that there is more to do. For the 28 active long-term advisories that still exist, there are comprehensive action plans in place for each of the 26 affected communities. Our government is collaborating with first nations to lift advisories on public systems as quickly as possible.
We will continue to make sustainable investments that support access to safe and clean drinking water in first nations. This includes expanding existing water delivery systems and supporting local water operators with their regular monitoring and testing of water quality.
This commitment is paying off, as 267 short-term advisories have been prevented from becoming long-term advisories. Moreover, many of these have been resolved quickly by operators.
For example, in Yukon, the circuit rider training program is implemented by Yukon University, with the support of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada. This is one example of our government supporting first nations as they take control of their water operations.
This program is funded by Indigenous Services Canada and delivered on-site. It provides training and support to local water operators, who are responsible for monitoring and maintaining water systems in first nations communities.
We acknowledge that it is not enough to only eliminate existing long-term drinking water advisories. We need to ensure that everyone in Canada can have reliable access to safe drinking water. In order to make this happen, first nations must have the capacity to operate their own water systems and the self-determination access to do so.
This year, Warren Brown from Lytton First Nation received the 2023 National First Nations Water Leadership Award for his outstanding commitment to protecting his community's water supply. While others in his community evacuated to escape the threat of wildfires in 2021, Brown stayed behind to maintain the community's water treatment plant. This meant that the community was able to enjoy clean drinking water when they returned home. Today, Warren Brown operates 13 drinking water systems and has helped lift six long-term drinking water advisories.
Last year, Indigenous Services Canada launched a call for proposals to identify how water operators on reserves can be better supported. This led to the funding of training workshops for current water operators, as well as funding for programs to attract new water operators in the field.
We have seen meaningful results from our government's effort to help first nations control their own water infrastructure. Transformative work is happening in first nations communities across Canada. The Atlantic First Nations Water Authority is a leading example of first nations showing innovative solutions to water solutions. This central water authority supports first nations communities in Atlantic Canada to upgrade, maintain and manage water and waste-water services. Most importantly, this authority is controlled by first nations and is a strong example of a step toward self-determination.
The AFNWA draws from traditional values, culture and knowledge to help guide its operators. The work merges indigenous knowledge, such as the seven grandfather teachings, with western science, which is an approach called two-eyed seeing. For those who may not be familiar with two-eyed seeing, it is a guiding principle that encourages the simultaneous use of indigenous and western world views. It recognizes the values of both perspectives, allowing communities to draw from the strengths of both traditions to find innovative and holistic solutions.
Part of the reason we are seeing these important strides forward is that communities can implement different solutions according to their own needs. There is no one-plan-fits-all approach. This work is guided at a community's own pace. This emphasis on self-determination allows communities to tailor solutions to their unique needs. The positive outcomes of this approach are evident in the success stories we have witnessed across various regions.
Our government recognizes that we must work in partnership with indigenous communities to ensure that everyone has access to safe and clean drinking water. First nations partners show innovation and leadership in water practices, and we must ensure that communities have the tools and resources they need to implement their own approach and solutions.
In conclusion, this is an ongoing commitment. The collaboration efforts between our government and first nations communities are about an enduring partnership. There will always be more work to do, and we look forward to continuing this journey together.
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- Dec/11/23 9:14:31 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I asked a question of the parliamentary secretary earlier and I want to get the minister's take on it as well.
I looked at the website for Crown Indigenous Relations, which is his department, in the context of water legislation. It talks about the engagement approach, which includes “advancing development of a legislative proposal” with the Assembly of First Nations, “ongoing direct engagement with First Nations rights holders, Modern Treaty and Self Governing Nations” and “engaging provinces and territories”.
What we heard earlier from the parliamentary secretary is that it almost seemed like that was an opportunity to fill out a form. In a statement from the FSIN today, it said:
...the first public draft released by Canada in February was developed in secret by Indigenous Services Canada without any direct input from First Nations, a fact that has been raised by the Assembly of First Nations and several regional First Nations organizations over the course of 2023.
Can the minister maybe clarify a bit about how the consultation was done? Was there any going out and talking to people or was there just an online application where people got to participate in the process?
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- Dec/11/23 9:15:39 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I know Bill C-61 is not the subject of our conversation today, but it is one of the first co-developed pieces of legislation that has been introduced. It really stems from the implementation of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, or UNDRIP. In many ways it was co-developed, and there were a number of different elements to that. One of them was consultation, which included two sets of consultations. One was for the initial draft and the second was for an improved draft. Subsequent to that, there was a group that did work, and many of them spoke today. We had the Chiefs of Ontario and Grand Chief Glen Hare, for example, who spoke today, and others spoke about the work they did to co-develop.
I am very proud of the fact that this was co-developed. I think we can take a lot of learning from here and apply it to other legislation we are developing and co-developing. I look forward to working with my colleague to improve this process.
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- Dec/11/23 9:16:54 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I would like to thank the hon. minister for his comments. I know he spoke about Bill C-61, but here is the thing: It is 2023 and the government is patting itself on the back because we do not have that many more boil water advisories to deal with. There are 26. It is abhorrent. The normalization of violating the rights of indigenous people is so accepted in Canada and by the government that we are bragging that there are still 26 boil water advisories. I find this shocking.
What we are actually here to talk about is the sunsetting of $7.6 billion in programs to Indigenous Services Canada. We know that, under the current situation, this is costing people's lives. I have had the pleasure of working a lot with the minister around the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls, two-spirit people and gender-diverse folks, and some of these cuts will make the difference between somebody living or not.
Does my hon. colleague agree with me that these cuts are reckless, knowing that most of these programs are underfunded? Is he committed to doing whatever he needs to do to make sure that does not happen?
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- Dec/11/23 9:18:22 p.m.
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Madam Chair, at the outset, let me just deal with the issue of water. The fact that any Canadian parliamentarian can stand up and still say we have 26 boil water advisories, where communities do not have access to clean drinking water, is deeply embarrassing and deeply hurtful. I think it is deeply problematic.
However, the fact is that there has been incredible progress, progress based on what indigenous people, first nations people, have asked for. It is no longer about the federal government procuring 150 systems and saying, let us implement these across Ontario or another region. It is about ensuring that there is local ability, procurement and self-determination over what that system looks like. It is one of the reasons we are here today. There are still 26 to go, and I am confident that we will get to the end point.
On the issue of sunsetting some of the programs, it is important to recognize that many of our programs are multi-year, whether it is three or five years. Particularly with COVID, we had even longer periods of programming that came in that could sunset. Collectively speaking, our government has been consistently renewing and re-establishing programs based on evolving needs. We will not, under any circumstances, compromise the progress we have made with Indigenous Services.
We will continue to ensure that every young person in indigenous communities is supported. The services that ISC provides are so critical. We realize that, and we will continue to ensure that funding is sustained and people are supported throughout Canada in order—
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- Dec/11/23 9:21:19 p.m.
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Madam Chair, it is simplistic sometimes to say there is one particular incident that led us to this place. I think there were successive governments that underfunded Indigenous Services.
When we took office in 2015, one of the most important aspects of the Prime Minister's commitment and our mandate was to ensure that we walk the path of reconciliation, which means two things. One is to close the gaps, and I would argue it is about eliminating the gaps. When an indigenous child and a non-indigenous child are born today, they should have the same opportunities and the same outcomes, regardless of who they are. I think that is something we still need to work harder at. I believe that is the path we are on.
The second piece is the work that I do with long-term reconciliation, making sure that self-determination is at the core of the work that we are doing. It is no longer an Ottawa-driven approach. It is an approach that is driven by communities based on their needs, based on their values, and the role of the federal government is to support those initiatives.
I want to thank my friend for that question, and I look forward to continuing on this path toward reconciliation.
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- Dec/11/23 9:23:35 p.m.
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Madam Chair, I am not going to speak for ISC, but I can tell the member that we have a whole-of-government approach when it comes to reconciliation. As I indicated earlier, the need to close the gap is essential, and the work we have been doing over the last eight years is toward that goal. Whether with respect to the first nations and Inuit health branch, implementing Jordan's principle or the Indigenous Languages Act, just name the program, we have been investing to ensure that we close the gaps.
There is still work to do. I look forward, as a government, to not only doing the work but also ensuring that we are at a place where we are no longer having this debate. It is about moving forward on a true path to reconciliation.
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- Dec/11/23 9:34:16 p.m.
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Mr. Chair, it is great to be participating in this debate tonight. We learned so much about the important issues that first nations and indigenous people are bringing forward, so I would like to thank everybody who has participated. I think we need a lot more of that when it comes to working toward reconciliation.
Specifically looking at Indigenous Services and looking at the PBO report and the executive summary, it clearly indicated that the financial resources allocated to providing indigenous services had increased significantly. Look at the money that is being spent. The department had increased its plan of spending from $9.3 billion in 2018-19 to $39.6 billion in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Authorities for 2022-23 were $44.8 billion. I think this is really important because investing money is important. What we also saw was an increase in the number of full-time employees. It went from 4,200 to 7,200.
When we talk about indigenous services, I want to ensure that we are actually not talking about administration but about water, that we are actually talking about the things that are needed for reserves and those people off reserves.
I am taking this opportunity to speak about things that really matter to me as well, not just the boil water advisories. People who have been in this place have shared a lot with me. I would be remiss if I did not talk about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, what I have learned and the importance of the red dress alert; the importance of making sure that, if a young indigenous woman or girl goes missing, we know. We must work together to ensure that this gets done. It is going to take all members but we need to get on board to ensure this amber-like alert is there for murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. That is something we must continue to advocate for and continue to work for.
Just moments ago, I was asking about this. If we want to know about indigenous issues or want to talk about indigenous issues, we need to talk to people who know the facts, the people who are on the ground. People provide me with information when I want to talk about Nunavut. I just learned the most heartbreaking information about the increased rate of suicides. If anyone wants to throw a number out there, they would be disgusted because it would be so low. The rate of suicide for those people who are indigenous or Inuit is 25 times that of Canadians. Come on, everyone, what is so wrong with that? When we look at other issues we know that there has been an increase here or there, but 25 times that of Canadians is just appalling.
To those people in Nunavut, we must do all that we can to ensure that services are there for them. We know that it is not just about the services, but it is years and years of history, of perhaps not having the infrastructure. I know that they have been all named in this place. I do not want to miss anything, so I do not want to list them all off tonight because it is very important. If we are working toward reconciliation, we need to do more about this. We cannot let people die. That is exactly what we are doing on our watch. That is not good enough.
We talk a lot at the status of women committee about mental health. One of the greatest challenges is getting mental health services. Imagine if there were no hospital 20 minutes up the road, but instead people had to jump on maybe a propellor, maybe a boat or something like that. Where do people get their mental health services? Those are the questions being asked by so many of the people living in indigenous areas, who are living in those rural and remote areas. We could do better and we should be doing better.
The government has spent so much money and we have seen no results. It has hired so many people with, once again, fewer results. It has increased bonuses with even fewer results. It shuffles money from one place to another. Please, start getting it right. Indigenous people deserve it.
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- Dec/11/23 9:39:09 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I know that when it comes to indigenous services from the federal government, it can feel like a very complex issue, given all the different topics that we have to discuss, be it infrastructure, programs or staffing. No matter what we have seen in all past governments and the current one, it is not necessarily the number of staff in the bureaucracy but the unwillingness of the bureaucracy to devolve decision-making back to first nations, Métis and Inuit that is one of the harshest impacts. Therefore, when it comes to reconciliation, I know how important it is that, when decision-making is being given back to indigenous peoples, the devolution requires resources that allow indigenous peoples to make decisions about mental health care and about cultural care.
I wonder if the member agrees that when we are ensuring that indigenous peoples are making their own decisions, equivalent resources must be provided so that they can act on those decisions.
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