Merci, monsieur le Président. Peut-être qu’on peut donner aux membres l’option pour avoir la traduction.

Je voudrais soulever une motion de procédure conformément à l’article 25(b) du Règlement, qui stipule que le député ne peut parler que du sujet autour de la question à l’examen. On a un changement à la motion pour discuter la TVH et pas seulement la taxe de carbone.

I’m very pleased to rise in the House today to talk about something that is negatively affecting many Ontarians, including those in my riding of Hastings–Lennox and Addington. That, Speaker, is the carbon tax. This poorly thought-out tax grab by the federal government is doubling down on the existing pain already caused by the inflationary spirals and the interest rate hikes that are causing so much concern and so much suffering among struggling families. People should simply not have to choose between heating and eating.

Housing costs more because interest rates are up. Fuel costs have gone up because of many things around the global economy, certainly. Adding more tax to the already increased home heating fuel cost is just adding to all the cost increases. The cost-of-living increases are bad enough, but adding a tax to that is rubbing salt in the wound. Ultimately, it’s punitive. There is no option in Ontario; you have to heat your home in the winter. The idea that a carbon tax will convince you somehow to use less fuel is saying that you actually want people to poorly heat their homes. This is ludicrous.

Speaker, the last couple of years has changed something for Ontarians. There is a very simple and practical element of what should be an everyday occurrence in life across this province: that is, the enjoyable trip to the grocery store. Gone are the days when families would gather together and go to the local supermarket and actually get excited to pick out the foods that they’re going to eat over the next week or so to prepare those meals for the week. Now families have to brace themselves for making hard decisions of what to feed their families—very often, unfortunately, deciding between heating their homes and eating good, nutritious foods.

The motion we’re discussing today proposes that the Liberal federal government remove this carbon tax from those home heating fuels. The motion is limited to fuels and I will get to that, Speaker, but I would be remiss if I didn’t point out that most of the world views carbon taxes as completely ineffective. In fact, 75% of the nations of this world don’t have a carbon tax, including some of those that are recognized or at least have reputations as being the leading champions in the climate change effort. Countries like Australia, New Zealand and Germany don’t require their citizens to pay this wholly ineffective tax.

As families head out to pick up their groceries, they’re constantly hit with the carbon tax. It starts with putting fuel in their vehicles just to travel to the store.

Speaker, I do need to mention the geography. The area in which you live should never be a determination as to how much excessive tax you pay. For the vast majority of people in my riding, there is no local public transit. For very small rural municipalities, transit is just not a reasonable or practical option for them, so for my residents, a vehicle is not a luxury; it’s a necessity.

Again, I’m not sure exactly where I was in my comments, but when you live in small towns and rural areas, in the north or the south of this province, you must have access to a car, which means you must buy gasoline, which means that with every kilometre travelled, you’re paying that HST or that carbon tax.

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation estimates that with the current gas tax adding 14 cents per litre, skyrocketing over the next six years to the point where it will cost the average driver about $2,300 a year, almost $200 a month—that’s a huge hit for struggling families.

So far I’ve only talked about the struggles of Ontario families putting fuel in their vehicles. As they enter the grocery store, they’re also seeing the cost of food inflated because of carbon tax and, in some cases on those groceries, the HST. Before the food makes it to the store, we need to look at the farmers, the producers who are preparing our food and producing and transporting the food that we eat. They, too, are feeling the burden of these taxes.

Brendan Byrne, the chair of the Grain Farmers of Ontario, wrote an article in the Hill Times. In it, he says, “Like other Ontario grain farmers, we now have access to information and technology that helps us farm more efficiently than previous generations could ever have dreamed of. Agronomic science, data, and new innovations are allowing ... farmers to grow abundant, high-quality food on ever-decreasing amounts of arable land. Some things, though, don’t change. Farmers know healthy soil is the heart of a farm business, and we do everything we can to protect it.”

The farmers are the experts on improving climate impact on their farms, and the federal carbon tax penalizes those farmers who are working hard to create greener farming. A little further in that article, Byrne states, “When innovative ways to dry grain are developed, I can guarantee farmers will be quick to adopt them. Farm fuels are a major cost, and all farmers want to manage costs. But until alternative solutions are available, taxing the fuels used for grain drying only penalizes farmers and unnecessarily increases the cost of food production.”

The grain farmers’ association of Ontario has stated, “By 2030, it is estimated that ... $2.7 billion of carbon tax will be paid by Ontario grains and oilseed farmers.

“The concept of providing an incentive for change is only acting like a penalty for farmers who have no alternatives available to them. This is money that is coming right out of the farmers’ pocket.”

Grain farmers across the country have been asking for a carbon tax exemption since the federal Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act came into effect in 2018. The act recognizes that farmers need to use some fuels to perform tasks, and the tax was removed for farmers for some gasoline and diesel. The use of propane and natural gas, however, does not have that exemption. Not surprisingly, this tax is not applied equally, fairly, equitably or even logically.

Speaker, I reached out to one of my local farmers. Max Kaiser is an egg farmer down in Southern Lennox and Addington. For those in the House who don’t know this, almost all farmers who raise animals for our food supply are also grain farmers; they have to be. They’re growing the food to feed the animals that, in turn, provide our food. It was mentioned by Brendan Byrne that the federal government has decided that fuel costs for farmers, in some cases, are exempt from this exorbitant tax.

But get this: Max has his own drying equipment and does it himself; he is therefore exempted from some of those taxes. But his friend Richard, who doesn’t own his own dryer, sends his corn over to Herb to dry. Herb has to pay carbon tax because he’s considered a commercial operator, so he passes that charge to Rich when he’s drying Rich’s corn. So Max’s corn is dried tax-free, but Rich’s isn’t because of who’s drying it.

I’ll quote Max, who says, “Who uses it and for what is not relevant. Ultimately it is all food! Why does it matter who is drying and who isn’t?” Max goes on to say that he’s buying about 55,000 litres of propane per year to dry his own corn. If he was paying a carbon tax, there would be another $3,000 out of his pocket that has to be made up by the price of the food to the consumer.

He also buys another 30,000 litres for heating his chick barns, on which there is about $2,000 worth of that tax that’s not exempt. These chicks need to be kept warm and alive so that they can, in turn, produce eggs. I don’t know about you, but I like eating eggs. As egg producers, they employ a cost-of-production pricing system, which means that those prices get reflected in the price they get paid for the eggs. This is a price that gets passed on to consumers. Egg farmers collect about 66 cents for each dollar that the consumer pays for eggs. The grain and bread sectors only collect 2% or 3% on that consumer price.

Let me quote Max again: “So carbon taxing is far more impacting grocery prices for eggs and milk, but it all affects consumer pricing.

The federal government is “lying if they say otherwise. Food and fuel are the bottom, cornerstones of the economy. And, food needs fuel too to make it happen.”

Speaker, even the Parliamentary Budget Office has reported that the carbon tax’s cost to farmers will increase by—

Point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Good morning. Let us pray.

Prières / Prayers.

Resuming the debate adjourned on November 15, 2023, on the amendment to the motion regarding taxes on fuels for home heating.

The member is quite correct. The standing orders indicate that we should be debating the amendment to the main motion, and I would ask all members to ensure that their remarks conform to that standing order.

The member for Hastings–Lennox and Addington has the floor.

I apologize to the member. I recognize the member from Orléans.

I will ask the member to resume his debate.

Thank you very much, Speaker.

Again, I thank you for that reminder and my points will come back to the egregious compounding of the carbon tax and the HST. It is absolutely all relevant on the price of food, the price of vehicles, the price of our home heating and the cost of living for all of our residents.

Coming back, according to the Canadian Energy Centre, Ontario agricultural production costs have increased 4% because of the carbon tax, and it continues with the HST. All of these costs are being passed along to families at the grocery store.

I must come back to the statement—as families across this province are struggling with food, they should not need to continually be deciding between heating and eating.

While there are good reasons to be concerned about policy implications with a heating oil exemption, the analysis has found, according to the Canadian Climate Institute, that the effect on emissions will be negligible.

Even Enbridge estimated that the federal carbon charge will add almost $300 to the Ontario household natural gas bill. This is the home heating bill, and we know that there is HST on top of that, and this will only continue to increase year after year until 2030.

The bottom line: The federal carbon tax, including the HST component, is not a balanced tax.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business says that $8 billion will be collected from small businesses and only $35 million returned, and that most businesses—56%—will have no choice but to pass on those increased prices caused by the carbon tax and the HST to the consumers. We’ve all heard different estimates—but even the Bank of Canada itself says a major component of inflation right now are these taxes.

Again, I come back to the geography. The reports are very clear that while the vast majority of eastern Canadians, Maritimers, are using furnace oil to heat their homes, only 2% or 3% of Ontarians are. Most of us in this province are using the less-carbon-intensive natural gas or propane. And yet, the federal government has crassly decided to exempt the people of the Maritimes while ignoring the people of Ontario. Trust me, I don’t begrudge the discount to the people of the Maritimes. They’re suffering from bad federal policy on the economy as well. I’m only asking to have that same exemption—the same recognition that we here in Ontario are suffering from the high costs and need the same exemptions that are being offered to eastern Canada.

That is exactly what the general motion, not including the amendment, is asking for—“That, in the opinion of this House, the government of Canada should take immediate steps to eliminate the carbon tax on fuels and inputs for home heating.”

This is Canada; home heating is a basic necessity. Adding to the costs of a basic necessity, on top of all the increased costs for all the other necessities, including the HST, is just adding insult to injury.

It has long been said that it’s very expensive to be poor. If you can’t afford to buy a new $7,000 or $10,000 high-efficiency furnace, then you’re paying more for the same amount of fuel with no improvement in your situation, but you are paying a higher level of tax. If you can’t afford to buy the latest, most fuel-efficient car, then you’re paying a higher level of tax. If you’re struggling with your food budget, then you tend to buy smaller portions and in turn higher prices.

If you can’t afford to buy a locally made product—we know that right here in Ontario, in all of our small communities, we grow some of the best food. We make some of the best products. But we also know that the stuff that’s shipped in by freighter from other parts of the world sometimes is cheaper, and we end up resorting to that, so we’re not feeding our own economy. This tax is encouraging us to not feed our own economy. We need to continue to utilize our local suppliers. Those products coming from other parts of the world don’t have the CO₂ emissions controls that we have here. They don’t have a carbon tax. They aren’t suffering from this.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, it’s well supported that struggling with affording heat, struggling with affording adequate shelter, struggling with affording good food and nutrition—these are basic elements of the socio-economic factors of health. This carbon tax is adding to health challenges in this province, and it’s adding to the cost of our health care system. All of this adds up to: It’s a horrible decision by the federal government.

But I do have to mention that here in Ontario we are helping. We are doing our best to improve the situation for Ontarians, to make the cost of living better. Our government, under this Premier, has been consistent. We want to support Ontarians and help them fight inflation and high interest rates. We fought this horrific carbon tax and continue to advocate to reduce or eliminate it. We lowered the cost of driving by lowering the gas tax and removing road tolls. We lowered taxation. In fact, in this province right now, if you don’t make $50,000 in income, you don’t pay any provincial income tax. This government, most importantly, has built up our economy, added 700,000 more jobs that are good-paying high-wage jobs so that the residents of Ontario can better afford the cost of living. So yes, Speaker, this government, under the leadership of the Premier, is making life more affordable for Ontarians, and all the while the federal Liberal government under Justin Trudeau is making it more expensive.

Speaker, I’ll end with a little analogy. Many people across this province here have savings. Many homeowners are saving for a future renovation or repair to the house. We know that, at some point, the roof on a house will need to be replaced, so the homeowner begins to save money towards replacing that roof. However, life sometimes throws some different circumstances at that homeowner. They may need to change the amount that they’re putting way each month in that savings or even take a break from it so that they can afford the necessities of the day. The carbon tax is taking far more from the people than it’s giving back. Are we actually saving money to help repair the environment? Can we afford to save for tomorrow by starving or freezing today? No, that’s not where Ontarians are at. Now is not the time for Ontarians to be putting money into the carbon tax while they struggle to make the decision between heating and eating. I urge all members to support this motion.

A point of order, Madam Speaker.

How many reminders does he get?

Good morning, everybody. It’s a pleasure to be here to have the opportunity to debate this fine motion and amendment to it. As many of you have heard me say, when I speak and when we look at the types of resolutions that we look at to fix the various problems that we try to fix, I always like to begin with looking at what is it that we are trying to solve and what’s the problem we’re trying to solve.

Well, obviously we’re dealing with some significant cost increases across the board. People are dealing with inflation. They’re struggling to be able to put food on the table. They’re struggling to be able to pay their rent. They’re struggling with being able to buy their groceries and heat their homes and put gas in their cars, or struggling to be able to get a bus pass. The struggles just are quite significant.

We are the government, and the reason why we are the government is because people have a lot of problems and they have elected us to fix those problems, because when the coalition of the Liberals and the NDP were in power, they caused all these problems. While they were causing all these problems, the people saw how terrible they were at effectively managing anything, so they decided to elect some people that they thought were going to be a lot better at managing things. I think the people have spoken, Madam Speaker.

Interjection.

So it’s incumbent on us as members in this House to recognize what the people of this province—all across this province in every single riding and every corner of it—what they are saying and what they’re concerned about. Right now, one of the principal concerns is affordability. It’s a basic reference. So, again, back to the question, what is the problem we need to solve? And the problem is affordability. Now, the nature of the motion that is before us and the amendment to the motion is to call upon the federal government to do something. So in this case, we’re calling upon our brothers and sisters in the—

Interjections.

And so, again, I ask, what is the problem we’re trying to solve and how will this amendment or this motion address that? I challenge myself because in order to answer that question, you have to get to the root, right? You must come to the root, and the root, ultimately, as the amendment is addressing an HST issue, the motion is addressing a carbon tax issue—which is all, again, aimed at how do we fix this affordability problem.

Well, you have to ask yourself what each one of those taxes—what they were all about. The HST, obviously, has been around for a very long time. The GST before it was around for a very long time. The carbon tax is a recent issue, and it comes about for very different reasons, so let’s focus there as a starting point.

The carbon tax: My understanding—I stand to be corrected, Madam Speaker—is, somehow, a tax that was contemplated, envisioned, would solve certain environmental problems. They would produce people’s environmental impact. It would protect the environment. Okay—in theory, I can understand how that works. But in so doing, we’re taxing businesses on just about everything we do—literally, quite frankly, everything, whether it’s your food—you know, we’re hearing people talk about what it costs to run a fan, to dry our foods off before we can put them out to market so they don’t rot or mould.

We’re talking about how much it costs me to fuel gas in my home, and I don’t even use that much. My own home—I burn a lot of wood. I just had my three sons and myself getting ready for the winter. We’re prepping our woodshed. We’re getting everything set. My wood cost has gone up $10 a cord and they’re telling me it’s because of the cost of fuel. All of these costs just keep on growing and growing and growing.

Me heating my home with wood is a little bit more environmentally friendly than using natural gas. Now, I’ve got to pay more money for that. Okay, I can understand that. But is it going to fix the problem? Is it going to fix the grander issue of protecting the environment? Those costs are just getting pushed on to me, the end user. The cost of that bologna sandwich is just going up, but the person who is paying for it is that end user. I used to bring my kids to Subway a lot after soccer practice. We used to always go to Subway; it was a thing. Until I went to Subway recently and a sub cost me, and a diet Pepsi—it was like $18, for one. I mean, you multiply that out by the whole family and I’m thinking, that’s a really expensive lunch, right? That’s a really, really expensive lunch. Why am I paying that price? It’s because of all of these costs going up, and I’m just paying for it.

So, is the environment getting protected? Did anybody stop doing anything to hurt the environment because they had these taxes? No, they’re just paying more money to do the business that they’re doing, and they’re making me pay for it. It’s a really challenging situation that now I’m just paying for and you’re paying for and the member for Niagara is paying for and all of his constituents are paying for—but again, are his constituents seeing any changes in the world? Are they seeing the impact of the carbon tax fixing the environment? I’d love to know if the member actually sees a change in the environment because of all the extra costs his constituents are paying, for basic items like a fried egg in the morning.

Interjection.

Further debate?

The motion that is the amendment states, “amended by removing everything after the word ‘should’ and inserting ‘in conjunction with the government of Ontario, remove the harmonized sales tax on fuels and inputs for home heating.’” Please speak to the amendment to the original motion. Thank you.

I will recognize the member from Sault Ste. Marie.

Interjection.

Point of order, Madam Speaker.

Merci, madame la Présidente. Si vous voulez prendre un moment pour avoir la traduction, s’il vous plaît, allez-y.

Je me lève sur une motion de procédure conformément à l’article 25(b) du Règlement, qui stipule que le député ne peut parler de sujets autres que la question à l’examen.

La motion sur la table est d’éliminer la TVH sur le chauffage domestique. Ce n’est pas une question de demander au gouvernement fédéral de changer la taxe de carbone.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate that.

Interjection.

Interjection.

I really, if I can, and if the member from Niagara will allow me, would love to be able to speak to the member for Orléans’s amendment to our motion at this time, which of course as we all know is about affordability. I think that it’s a challenging situation, though, Madam Speaker. It’s a very challenging situation when we sit in this House and we look at ways that we can fix things, and yet when I look at this carbon tax, I can’t fathom how it fixes the problem. Here at home, I’m challenged to see how it fixes the problem, but what I can clearly see—and I think we can all see—is how it’s costing every single one of us, the end user, more for everything.

The HST does cost everything more. We’ve been paying for the HST now for a long time. We’re all used to that. I mean, hey, I’d be happy to pay no tax. Mea culpa, I would love no tax. I don’t think anyone on this side of the House would ever argue with that. But, maybe there is some argument of, like, “the end justified the means.” We needed income to pay for things like health care. We needed money to pay for various items. And a lot of this revenue for the government allows us to be able to afford the things that we enjoy, as people in a free and democratic society, here in this province and certainly in this country, enjoy—and, arguably, maybe some should be able to enjoy more than others. I think that there are certainly challenges in that regard.

All that being said, this particular carbon tax—it’s a tax. It’s not fixing the problem it was intended to solve. So if it’s not going to fix the problem that it was intended to, then maybe the feds should look at a different way of doing it. How else can we protect the environment? Let’s not even talk about how the lack of this—

Both of these measures—whether the carbon tax or whether the HST—are all coming from the feds. So we’re looking at the feds and saying, “Hey, guys, you’ve got option A and you’ve got option B. Option A, the carbon tax, is supposed to fix the environment, but it’s just costing us all more money. Option B is a way to fill our coffers, and it’s costing people more money. You should change something here.” Well, let’s be reasonable. The whole concept of this amendment is, which one should we ask for; which one do we want to bug the feds about? Do we want to say to the feds, “Hey, guys, stop charging people more money for something that isn’t fixing the problem you’re trying to fix”—the environmental concerns—or, “Stop charging people more money for this other problem, which is just trying to pay for all of our other goods and services that we have out there”?

Madam Speaker, I’ll repeat what I said earlier. Personally, I’d rather have no tax of any kind. Don’t tax me at all. Keep your hand out of my pocket. I think most people would agree. Nobody wants government’s hands in their pockets.

But I do like the services that I have. I do enjoy having roads to drive on. Sometimes I wish they were nicer. Sometimes I really wish there were more of them. I like being able to go see my doctor. Sometimes I do wish there were more of them. Sometimes I wish there was better access to different things. But I do like what I have. I like being able to send my kids to school. Actually, I’ve got no concerns with my kids’ schooling. They’re doing really good in school. They’ve got nice teachers, a good team there, a good board, a nice facility. I’m quite happy with that side of things, to be honest with you. But I recognize that that costs money. So we’ve got to pay for that—and we are.

The carbon tax—what is it fixing? It’s not fixing the environment. Is it going to change how much pollution someone generates in any jurisdiction outside of this province or country? Is it going to change any of that? No. We know for a fact that it won’t change that at all. But members in various—and rightfully so—would say, “We’ve got to worry about our own house first. We can’t worry about everybody else. We’ve got to worry about us.” That’s a fair argument, right? It’s a very fair argument. It makes a ton of sense. You’ve got to worry about yourself first. Lead by example, right? That’s really relevant. But is it going to do anything? It doesn’t seem to be fixing it. It just means I’m paying more money for my baloney sandwich, for my cord of wood, for everything, and it’s not fixing the problem. It’s not changing anything. So why are we doing it?

So, should we vote for the amendment? Let’s tell the federal government we don’t want to pay any more money. We want them to stop charging tax for all the stuff that we enjoy, those goods and services that we really, really appreciate and that we love as Canadians. Or should we ask the federal government to stop a tax that absolutely is not fixing the problem they want to solve?

And then when you look at—I’m going to use a personal example. Here I am, the member for Sault Ste. Marie. My local steel plant—one of only three steel manufacturers in the country, all three of which are here in the province of Ontario, two in Hamilton, one in Sault Ste. Marie—Algoma Steel, greening its steel, reducing carbon emissions, a huge economic investment, a huge benefit, actually making a difference on the environment at a huge level by making critical investments that our government has made without resorting to a carbon tax, without jamming our hands as deep as we can into every single business and thinking that it’s going to change anything other than them then making us pay for it.

I say we get rid of the carbon tax, Madam Speaker. To me, I would say I have really, really honestly considered the member’s amendment to the motion, but personally, I’m not convinced. And as I’m speaking, I don’t know, I hope I convinced a few people here today that the amendment doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense.

On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

I will remind the member from Niagara Falls to come to order.

Further debate?

It’s a pleasure to rise to debate this motion. Before I get into the need to address the affordability and climate crisis that we’re facing in Ontario right now and the fact that this government has failed to address both of those, I’ve got to say it’s been interesting listening to the member from Sault Ste. Marie defending taxes. I’ve got to say, folks on the other side of the aisle oftentimes don’t defend taxes. It was interesting hearing the member defend taxes, because we know taxes pay for our health care system. They pay for good education, universities; addressing the housing affordability crisis; addressing the climate crisis; basically, making life livable in this province.

They say taxes are what fund civilization. So I was happy to hear the member acknowledge that. I’m hoping that the government members, when things like gimmicks like licence plate stickers come up again—and being the only MPP in this entire Legislature to vote against that, because I wanted to see the $2.5 billion that was lost in the first year and the $1.5 billion we’re losing each and every year actually going to helping Ontarians access high-quality health care or education, better long-term-care services, building affordable housing. So the next time the government brings up a gimmick like that, I’ll be reminded of the member’s elegant defence of the role taxes play in funding our government and our society.

Speaker, we are facing an affordability crisis and a climate crisis. And I would say to all members of this House of all political parties, you ignore them at your peril. We have to address both, and we can address both at the same time, but not by the actions of this government.

Think about the fall economic statement. There wasn’t a single measure to address affordability in the fall economic statement, nor were there any measures to address the climate crisis. As a matter of fact, since this government took office, they ripped up Ontario’s climate plan. They cancelled 750 renewable energy contracts, costing the province $230 million. They cancelled EV rebates, which would help people drive lower-cost cars. They ripped out charging stations to help people charge those cars at a lower cost. They changed the building code to make building retrofits—

So we have an amendment here to take the HST off home heating, to a motion to remove the carbon price from home heating. If people really want to address the cost associated with home heating, the best thing we can do is to help people avoid both of those costs: the HST and the carbon price. How do we help people do that, Speaker? We help them save money by saving energy and by helping people reduce the need to purchase fuel to heat their homes.

Unfortunately, when the current government took office, they cancelled all of those programs to help people save money by saving energy. The Ontario Greens are saying, “Let’s bring those programs back.” I want to give you just one example: Corporate Knights hired a number of economists to do an analysis of what it would look like if we brought in a building retrofit program in the province of Ontario—or across Canada, but I will give you the numbers for the province of Ontario. A $5-billion investment in building retrofits would leverage $83 billion of additional capital investment in the province, creating over 800,000 jobs, contributing $196 billion to Ontario’s GDP, reducing climate pollution by 14 metric tonnes, and saving energy consumers $4.8 billion each and every year. To me, that’s the most logical, sensible, fiscally responsible and economically responsible way to help people with home heating costs and be more effective than removing the HST or carbon price from home heating fuels. Why don’t we invest in that? Why don’t we actually help people save money by saving energy—not just this year, but the next year and the next year and the years after that? That’s how we can address both the climate crisis and the affordability crisis that people are facing.

There has been a lot of talk about the cost-of-fuel inflation that we’re facing, whether it’s home heating, at the gas pumps, or whatever. If you look at what is driving it—this is according to PBO—the carbon price went up two cents last year—that’s per litre; it’s two cents per litre. Profits for the oil and gas companies, last year, went up by 18 cents a litre—

I would say to your average consumer looking at heating their home, “What’s hitting you harder: the two cents that the carbon price raised per litre last year or the 18 cents that went to oil and gas profits last year?” If we’re going to write letters—essentially, what these motions are about is writing letters to the federal government. If we want to write a letter to the federal government, why don’t we write a letter to the federal government to bring in the exact same excess profit tax, they brought in for banks and insurance companies, to the oil and gas sector? That would raise $4.2 billion. We could then take that $4.2 billion and follow the analysis that the Green Budget Coalition has done showing that we could actually do zero-cost energy retrofits for low-income households, including providing them with a heat pump at the exact same price, saving them far more money than either the original motion or the amended motion provides for people.

Speaker, the point is, we have solutions. As a matter of fact, the province wouldn’t even have to write a letter to the federal government on carbon pricing if we would just actually bring back the programs that would help people save money by saving energy, which, by the way, would benefit our economy and reduce climate pollution at the same time.

Speaker, the other thing that I, when I’ve heard the government discuss this—I see the energy minister here. I love debating the energy minister.

Gouging.

I’d love for you to keep talking.

You never ask me any questions, though.