Senator Gold: Well, you would have made a very good law student because that’s a very good question. In fact, it is one of the things that went to the heart of the choice made by Parliament 20 years ago to choose this path — rather, I should say it chose, 20 years ago, not to create the offence of getting drunk negligently, to which I alluded briefly as one of the pathways.

The path of Bill C-28 preserves the offence with which you’re charged. So if you were found guilty of sexual assault despite the fact that you were really high or drunk, and you lost control because you were negligent in getting so high or drunk, you’re convicted of sexual assault with all the penalties and the stigma, if I can use that term, and the social disapprobation that attaches to that conviction.

Twenty years ago, the then-minister of justice Allan Rock — and this was much debated — was having to figure out which pathway to choose. He worried aloud, as did many scholars, that simply making a stand-alone offence of being criminally, negligently intoxicated would provide what he called a “drunk discount” to the offender. By definition, the penalty would have to be less than for the sexual assault that was actually committed, and the stigma would be less. Indeed, even Supreme Court Justice Kasirer — I quoted at length from the judgment and I could quote at even greater length — makes the same point, 20 years on. He referred to the literature. He said a stand-alone offence would not achieve Parliament’s dual purposes that are still relevant and valid, underlying section 33.1, and that is one of the reasons that, 20 years ago, that was not the option chosen. And it’s one of the reasons this government has chosen the second pathway that the court laid out. I hope that answers your question.

Senator Gold: I have no knowledge of what the government would do with regard to that. The short answer is that the court responded expeditiously with this legislation, which it believes, and I believe, satisfactorily fixes the broken sink or toilet or whatever architectural image I used. I have no reason to think that they will not proceed with trying to improve the law if those are the recommendations that come out of our study or the study in the other place.

Senator Gold: We’re the masters of our own house. Senate committees deserve the reputation they have for doing serious work. It’s important, first, that the committee take the job seriously, as I know it will, and define the scope of it. It’s up to the committee to decide how broadly or narrowly it wants to look at it.

As Senator Lankin pointed out, the way this was structured — and it was thanks to the input from senators to modify this — it gives the opportunity for our committee to start its work but not to have to finish its work until it has the opportunity to review what others may have said. Different opinions may emerge. There may be points of contact. Who knows?

But our work can only be enhanced, I think, with not only the knowledge and input of witnesses, but also the information and conclusions that the other place arrives at.

But it would be up to the chair, the steering committee and the committee as a whole to decide how to proceed.

Hon. René Cormier: My question is for the Government Representative in the Senate. Senator Gold, on December 1, 2020, I moved a motion in this chamber that was adopted that very day. It called on the Government of Canada to increase the total funding for the Federal Initiative to Address HIV/AIDS to $100 million annually. The fact of the matter is that this funding is yet to materialize, or so reports a consortium of community and human rights advocacy organizations, including the HIV Legal Network and the Canadian AIDS Society. Unfortunately, in the meantime we have seen an increase in cases of HIV infection in Canada over the past few years.

Senator Gold, on the eve of the International AIDS Conference, which is being held in Montreal at the end of July, Canada being the host country this year, will the Canadian government finally commit to increasing the funding for the fight against HIV/AIDS to $100 million a year and when will it do so?

Hon. Marc Gold (Government Representative in the Senate): Thank you for the question, senator. The Government of Canada is proud that Canada is hosting the 24th International AIDS Conference, which, as you mentioned, is being held in Montreal from July 29 to August 2, 2022. The government remains firmly committed to end the AIDS endemic by 2030 and to support Canadians living with this disease. I am told that the government is investing $87 million annually to fight HIV and other sexually transmitted and blood-borne infections. The government is also providing $30 million to the Harm Reduction Fund to help prevent and control HIV and hepatitis C. The government continues to work closely with community groups and people with lived experience.

Senator Cormier: Thank you for your response, Senator Gold. Many organizations are calling on the Canadian government to increase its contribution to the Global Fund, which finances initiatives to fight HIV, tuberculosis and malaria around the world. Will Canada use its leadership as host of the International AIDS Conference to increase its contribution to this important fund, especially considering that AIDS is so prevalent in the world and continues to wreak havoc?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your supplementary question. I would like to point out that Canada has supported the Global Fund since its inception and, in fact, is its sixth largest donor. The government remains committed to supporting initiatives to fight HIV. The government also continues to assess numerous investments, and I would be pleased to contact the minister regarding Canada’s investment in this fund.

Senator Gold: I will make inquiries and try to report back. I will use my best efforts to encourage that this process — an important process, as you properly underlined — be commenced.

Hon. Judith G. Seidman: Honourable senators, my question is for the government leader. Bill C-45, the Cannabis Act, received Royal Assent on June 21, 2018, and came into force on October 17, 2018.

The act requires that, three years after coming into force, the Minister of Health conduct a review on the administration and operation of this act and its impact on public health.

In particular, the review must assess the health and consumption habits of young persons in respect of cannabis use, the impact of cannabis on Indigenous persons and communities and the impact of cultivation of cannabis plants in a dwelling house.

Senator Gold, eight months have passed since the three-year anniversary of the Cannabis Act and the minister has not yet initiated this review. When can we expect this important legislative review to begin?

Senator Gold: Thank you for your question.

Different governments provide and conclude different policy instruments to address it. President Biden’s decision reflects the unique circumstances in which he finds himself in. His party finds itself in a unique situation in the United States.

The Government of Canada is doing many things to help Canadians weather the cost of living, as it did many things to help Canadians in an economic sense get through the pandemic, and it will continue to do so. It will continue to evaluate the levers and policy options that it has, but, as I said, at the moment a decision has not been taken to reduce or temporarily suspend the federal gas tax.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Leader, the Trudeau cabinet currently has a public safety minister who misled Parliament on multiple occasions over why he invoked the Emergencies Act. They have a Service Canada minister giving Canadians seeking a passport some of the worst service imaginable. There’s a foreign minister who blames her official attending a party at a Russian embassy on a missed email, a transport minister who blames passengers for the long lineups at our airports and an immigration minister presiding over a backlog of 2.4 million applicants, which must be a record, leader. This is all just in the last few weeks.

Leader, is anyone in the Trudeau cabinet competent at their job? If so, who?

Senator Plett: I have a feeling that would be a pretty short list, and it wouldn’t take you very long. Well, it might, because you might not be able to think of any.

Leader, the Trudeau cabinet currently also has a finance minister who offers nothing new to Canadians in dealing with record inflation and who thinks she has done enough, a Minister of Agriculture who charges Canadian farmers a 35% tariff on fertilizer — which hurts them, not Putin — a heritage minister who forces his bill, Bill C-11, through the House in a completely undemocratic process, a House leader who wants hybrid Parliament to remain long after most Canadians have returned to work — in fact, they just passed it again today. To top it all off, we have a divisive, out-of-touch Prime Minister who thinks nothing of interfering with an active police investigation of a mass murder to advance his own political agenda.

Canadians deserve much better than this, leader; don’t you agree?

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, I was hoping that I wouldn’t be the first one because my notes are set up for debate. Nevertheless, I will try to make some assumptions on what certain people would have said and debate them.

Honourable senators, quite frankly, I was unsure. Senator Gold decided not to take part in the debate, and I was wondering whether I wanted to. I really think both sides of this issue and the motion raised will be presented fairly in our debate today. There are, clearly, a couple of different opinions on whether we should be bringing forward a motion that looks a lot like a programming motion. I’m certainly happy that it doesn’t say that it’s a programming motion, but I do feel that it is important that some facts be put on the record.

I stress that I do not believe we are creating a precedent with this motion, that we are not changing in any way how the Senate works and what the powers of the opposition as a group and individual senators may be.

Let me start by saying that the motion to limit debate and pass Bill C-28 quickly was adopted in the House unanimously, which is one of the reasons why we also support the motion and will, later today, support Bill C-28.

There was no time allocation in the other place, just an agreement on how to do things properly and quickly, and it was a negotiated agreement accepted by all sides. And that is what I want to stress: This is an agreement that was accepted by all sides.

There may be senators here who have an issue with this agreement and who have an issue with what we are doing, and I have an issue with the way the government has operated on some things, including Bill C-28 and the government not getting it to us in a timely fashion so it could be debated a little bit more thoroughly here and sent to a committee for study. Instead, we had to accept second best, and that was Committee of the Whole with a justice minister who, quite frankly, I do not think gave us the answers we needed.

So the agreement that we reached is something similar to what they have in the House. We reached an agreement on process, not on whether we like the bill. We reached an agreement on process, and all senators who stand to speak to this motion today who are part of a caucus — or we like to call them groups now, or anything else we want to call them — have elected leaders, and they have indeed been elected. Senator Gold has been appointed, but Senator Saint-Germain has been elected by her group. Senator Cordy has been elected by hers, Senator Tannas by his, and I indeed by mine, and I thank my colleagues continually and am continually amazed at their confidence in me. I certainly appreciate it.

This was decided by all of the leaders, and we signed on to this. We all said we have to develop a process. We are here in the final days and the final hours of a fairly long sitting.

Over in the House of Commons, I’m sure the ministers’ drivers are at the doors ready to rush them out of town, those who have not left yet, and the rest of the members of all parties are ready to go home.

Tomorrow is Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, an extremely important day in the province of Quebec, and certainly the fact that it’s Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day is an important issue for me. We don’t celebrate the same holiday, but we needed to do something to come out of here. We could have done something other than have this motion and come back here next week — at taxpayers’ expense — and debated this some more. We wouldn’t have gotten anywhere; we wouldn’t have changed it. The House has gone home. We could amend it; they wouldn’t be dealing with it and we would be running the risk of horrendous crimes happening across our country. Defences would be mounted because people were intoxicated, and this is not something I want.

I have argued many times in this chamber how the government is bringing us legislation that our government leader here and the government over in the other place are saying is time sensitive when there is nothing time sensitive about it. However, this bill, colleagues, is time sensitive. We need to pass this bill before we rise.

The minister said he was happy with the study, and we had a motion that the Legal Committee will study this, and we will get a report on this and will hopefully improve it, but we need to move forward.

The Senate has adopted similar motions in the past. For example, the MAID and legalization of cannabis bills were negotiated agreements, agreed by all caucuses and group leaders. There was no motion to limit debate or impose the will of the government on the opposition or other senators.

I had a part in negotiating the time frames in those where we changed some of the speaking times to 10 minutes from 15 minutes so everyone could have a say, but we did some limiting, and I believe that is good. I do not want to limit one senator from having his or her say here today, and, of course, we have passed motions that we are sitting until midnight, and that’s fine. We will sit here until midnight. We sat late last night, and this is normal.

Motion No. 53 allows Bill C-28 to receive second and third reading on the same day. Again, nothing very unusual about that. Agreeing to forgo the delays stated in the Rules is not something new. There are numerous precedents in our recent and not‑so‑recent past showing that we have done that. Bill C-28 is not a long and complex bill. It’s a very straightforward bill. The issue it touches is technical, but the bill is straightforward. So not having longer delays between first and second reading and then second and third reading is not prejudicial, and there may be senators who say it is prejudicial. It is not prejudicial.

Looking at the number of senators who have expressed willingness to speak on Bill C-28, I don’t think organizing the debate the way Motion No. 53 does will take away the right of any one senator to put on the record his or her opinion on the bill and even propose amendments. We have allowed the time. There is nothing in the motion that says we cannot put forward amendments.

The time limit on the motion is that we have to call the question by 9 p.m. tonight and, again, that is not time allocation. When the opposition signs on to a process that the government has brought forward, that cannot be interpreted as time allocation. That can be interpreted as two, three, four or, in this case, five sides getting together and having unanimity. Colleagues, I don’t think I’m breaking any confidence here, but we had unanimity on this issue. We had differing opinions on leave, for example, and, of course, leave wasn’t granted when Senator Gold brought this forward, and Senator Tannas made that clear.

I’m sorry again if I’m breaking confidence, but I don’t think I am. Senator Tannas made it clear to Senator Gold: Bring a motion in such a way that, if you are not granted leave, you have allowed yourself the one-day notice you will need to get this through. We will not hold you up here on Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day. We will not ask you to come back, but don’t ask us to give you leave because you know our group, our caucus, is inherently opposed to giving leave, as they have shown. But Senator Tannas was a willing participant and a willing recipient of the concept of what Senator Gold then did.

Today is June 23 — I may be repeating myself here — and tomorrow is a holiday in Quebec. Historically, the Senate does not sit on that day. Prolonging debate on Bill C-28 just for the sake of it would force us to come back for a few days next week at a large cost to taxpayers and is unnecessary.

Lastly, I want to point out that the motion provides for a thorough study of the issues surrounding Bill C-28 by our Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs. I already mentioned that. Again, this is something all groups agreed to. Let’s make sure the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee studies it. They have given Senator Jaffer and her committee a mandate to bring this forward. This is a government motion. This comes from Senator Gold, and I have every confidence in our members on the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee that they will do a thorough job of this. It should be made clear that this is a very integral part of the agreement.

So, colleagues, I know there are those — including in my own caucus — who do not want to give in. We do not want to give the government what they want, and that’s fair. However, there comes a time when you develop processes, and over the years that I have been involved — Senator Harder will bear witness to this, as will Senator Gold — I have never, when I have made an agreement, agreed that we will pass a bill by a certain time. I have agreed that we will allow the question to be called on a bill by a certain time. That’s a distinct difference, and not one leader out of the five of us committed one of you, colleagues, to how you were going to vote.

We only committed that we will do this, that we will do this today and that we will do it in an orderly fashion. We limited some speaking times, but we did not limit the number of speakers, so I encourage everyone to speak. I also encourage that we go through with this. The time will come later in the day when I will be speaking on Bill C-28 and I will make my wishes known on Bill C-28. I will have some things to say, but now we’re talking about this motion. I encourage all of us to have our say, but let’s move on to the debate on the bill, a very important bill that has received all-party support at the other end, as it should. This is an issue that concerns each and every Canadian. It is time sensitive and has to be passed before we leave here tomorrow. Thank you, colleagues.

Senator Patterson: Yes.

Hon. Dennis Glen Patterson: Honourable senators, I rise today to speak to the programming Motion No. 53 that has been introduced regarding Bill C-28, the bill dealing with extreme intoxication leading to a state akin to automatism.

I was first alerted to the potential issues with this bill after the text was tabled last Friday. Over the weekend, the concerns continued to flood in from notable legal minds across the country. This past Tuesday, I sat and listened as senator after senator raised concerns about potential loopholes created by the bill. For me, this is one of those moments where I feel the need to exercise my independence and speak up so that, frankly, I can sleep comfortably at night. I am thankful to be supported by a group that values that type of independence.

As you all know, I summoned up my courage and gave a resounding “no” when the government tried to move this motion with leave yesterday. I want to explain why. Things happen in this place all the time that frustrate one or more of us. For me, I am most frustrated when we seem to shirk our responsibility to carefully review legislation and to ensure we are always representing our regions, minorities and voices that aren’t always heard.

I listened carefully to Senator Dasko last night, who told us that Canadians are still not seeing value for money when they look at the Senate. I have been here long enough to see tools like time allocation and programming motions used. In my experience, a programming motion is best used when we have a large, complicated piece of legislation and we need to chart a path forward for it. It’s not used to limit debate and skip stages in the parliamentary review process for a bill that, at the time leave was sought yesterday, had not even been introduced yet.

I know that the Canadian Senators Group, or CSG, leadership explored ways to allow more voices to be heard on this issue. We put forward the question of extending the Committee of the Whole. We could have had another 65 minutes after Minister Lametti’s testimony to hear from women’s organizations and other witnesses who were and are eager to testify about this bill, or it was suggested we could have a short study by the Legal Committee. We had a committee that met last night during the supper break, so it could have happened as quickly as yesterday if there had been support for that but, in the end, those options were all rejected.

Honourable senators, leadership is certainly about standing strong and firm at times. However, it’s also, I believe, about demonstrating a willingness to listen and compromise at times. I believe that because of their unwillingness to accommodate these requests and the overall inflexibility of the government, we were put in a position where we would be asked to do everything with leave. That would challenge one or more senators to be the sole reason for us having to sit, for example, on Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day tomorrow or into next week. It is a tactic that forces one or more people to become the “bad guy,” and I know how that feels. so often we hold our noses and let things through despite our objections.

I want to clearly thank the leaders for introducing this motion because even though I disagree with it and feel that this is an inappropriate use of an otherwise legitimate tool — in fact, it really skirts around the Rules of the Senate — at least, other colleagues and I have the chance to stand up and speak out, as Senator Plett pointed out just now. At least we are ensuring that if we do move forward, it is because a majority of the Senate has agreed that it is appropriate to give expedited passage to this bill without hearing from anyone else but the government and ourselves.

I think that’s wrong. I fully recognize that I may stand alone, or virtually alone, in opposing this motion. I felt a bit like David versus Goliath in that respect, the underdog facing an insurmountable obstacle, but as another underdog, namely Rocky Balboa, said, “I stopped thinking the way other people think a long time ago. You gotta think like you think.”

Colleagues, I want to give the last word to the women I feel should be part of this debate by reading a letter sent to all senators dated June 21, 2022. By the way, they have been standing by, ready to come here and express their strong concerns, since this bill was rapidly moved through the House of Commons and sent our way.

I see this letter as eloquent evidence in support of my belief that we should not be proceeding with a path forward that does not include them, and it is the main reason that I will vote against this motion. I will let them speak for me because they perfectly reflect my concerns.

Here is the letter:

I write on behalf of the National Association of Women and the Law (NAWL). Founded in 1974, NAWL is a feminist organization that promotes the equality rights of women through legal education, research, and law reform advocacy. While NAWL agrees that Parliament should act expeditiously to respond to the Supreme Court decision in Brown, it is deeply concerned with the seeming rush to pass Bill C-28, amending s.33.1 of the Criminal Code, before Parliament recesses for the summer. There was a lack of meaningful consultation prior to the bill being introduced and with the substance of the bill. In the best traditions of the Senate as the house of sober second thought, NAWL asks that Senators take the time to carefully examine the bill and refer it to its Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee with sufficient time to hear from relevant stakeholders, including women’s groups, Crown prosecutors, and medical experts. . . . This is necessary in order for the Committee to consider revisions to problematic aspects of the bill, which we fear will pose nearly impossible hurdles for prosecution of intoxicated perpetrators of violence against women.

I attach our press release that provides some further details of our concerns, particularly with the requirement that prosecutors prove beyond a reasonable doubt both that the loss of control after the consumption of intoxicants was reasonable foreseeability and the foreseeability of harm. We also provide a chart of two alternatives to amend s.33.1, which our criminal and constitutional experts have developed in order to avoid the current weaknesses of Bill C-28. We presented these alternatives to the Department of Justice, in a meeting organized by DOJ lawyers only mere days before the Bill was tabled. As a result, these alternatives did not receive meaningful consideration and we cannot discern that they are reflected in Bill C-28 in any way. This is in stark contrast to the early consultation with NAWL before the introduction of the bill inserting section 33.1 into the Criminal Code. NAWL also testified before Parliament suggesting a number of amendments to what became the final text of s.33.1.

The defence of extreme intoxication is one that is almost always advanced by men perpetrating violence against women. Further, men responsible for violence against women are usually intoxicated. Even if it is a high evidentiary bar for a successful defence of extreme intoxication, the real-life impacts of the availability of the defence on charging and prosecution decisions cannot be underestimated. Parliament should act quickly to ensure that accused men who voluntarily become extremely intoxicated before committing gendered violence are held accountable. However, it should not act hastily and entrench a flawed bill into law. NAWL respectfully asks you to take the time to ensure that Bill C-28 will serve justice.

The letter, colleagues, was signed by Dr. Kerri A. Froc, Chair, National Steering Committee of the National Association of Women and the Law and co-signed by representatives of Luke’s Place Support and Resource Centre, Women’s Shelters Canada, Ending Violence Association of Canada, Canadian Femicide Observatory for Justice and Accountability, Alberta Council of Women’s Shelters, Sexual Assault Centre of Edmonton, Barbra Schlifer Commemorative Clinic, Persons Against Non-State Torture, London Abused Women’s Centre, Ontario Network of Sexual Assault/Domestic Violence Treatment Centres, Action ontarienne contre la violence faite aux femmes, WomenatthecentrE and Lanark County Sexual Assault & Domestic Violence Program.

I’m happy to let them have the last word in concluding my speech with their fervent desire to be heard.

Thank you, honourable senators.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Honourable senators, it is common practice to honour special Canadians during Senators’ Statements. Well, today, I want to do just that, and recognize and honour one of our very own.

Right here in this chamber there is a senator, a man, a father and a force to be reckoned with when it comes to advocating for the rights of victims of crime. Senator Boisvenu, today I wish to pay tribute to you for your incredible courage to battle for a cause so near and dear to your heart.

Twenty years ago today, our colleague was faced with an unbearable tragedy — a father’s worst nightmare. I can’t even imagine the emotions you went through following the kidnapping of Julie, and that was sadly just the beginning of this tragedy. The heinous situation worsened with the realization that Julie faced forcible confinement, rape and was eventually murdered by a repeat offender.

Honourable senators, the darkness of these words and actions are heavy, unconscionable and so emotionally charged. But, somehow, Senator Boisvenu found the force and the courage to turn this horrendous tragedy into a fight against violence towards women and to improve and respect the rights of victims of crime.

Senator Boisvenu managed to turn the pain and sorrow that he and his family suffered into a life journey to support others as they struggle with similar horrors. The tremendous pain he and his family have dealt with, and continue to deal with, fuels his relentless dedication and advocacy work.

As he said recently in an interview, Senator Boisvenu has the ability to reach out to families who are victims of crime, including fathers who are going through a wide range of emotions such as anger and despair. Having a common experience of trauma naturally allows him to be able to provide support, which is often desperately needed. This also uniquely positions him with tremendous credibility as a public voice for these families.

He is the founding president of the Murdered or Missing Persons’ Families’ Association and the force behind the compensation for victims of crime legislation that was adopted in the National Assembly of Quebec as Bill 25. He is also the co‑founder of a shelter for abused women, Le Nid, in addition to a camp for underprivileged youth.

The role and public responsibility the Honourable Pierre-Hugues Boisvenu has taken on to fight violence against women have ensured preventative campaigns and impactful and sustainable security improvements not only in Sherbrooke but also on a larger scale.

Senator Boisvenu, I tip my hat to you. Through great adversity, you have made it your duty and mission to relentlessly defend and speak for others.

I know you humbly say that your advocacy work is a way to keep the memory of your daughter Julie alive. Well, Senator Boisvenu, there is no doubt that your daughters Julie and Isabelle have one heck of a father. They chose you well.

Senator Boisvenu, thank you for all that you do.

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear.

[Translation]

Hon. Senators: Hear, hear!

[Translation]

Hon. Jane Cordy: Honourable senators, I rise today in recognition of Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, which is home to the oldest active Lutheran congregation in Canada. On June 13, the congregation celebrated the church’s two hundred and fiftieth anniversary. I thank former senator Wilfred Moore for contacting me to tell me about this special anniversary.

Founded by original German settlers who began arriving in Nova Scotia in 1753, parishioners first held church services outdoors in the open air, then later in St. John’s Anglican Church before building their own church in Lunenburg. The first Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church was built in 1772 in preparation for the arrival of their first pastor, the Reverend Mr. Friederich Schultz from Germany.

The church and its congregation have a rich history in the community, in a town that has its own long and rich history. The parishioners of Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church helped to shape that history and to help make Lunenburg the community that it is today.

I wish to congratulate Reverend Rick Pryce, parish pastor of Zion Evangelical Lutheran Church, as well all members of the congregation on this joyous occasion of celebrating 250 years of continuous family worship and community goodwill in Lunenburg. I know that the next 250 years will continue to be as successful as the last. My best wishes to the church members and to the community. Thank you.