Senator Dagenais: Delays and bureaucracy are two factors that sometimes slow down the procurement of equipment for our Armed Forces. Those delays have cost Canadian taxpayers a fortune since this government came to power. Why doesn’t Canada have a procurement department exclusively for Department of Defence requirements, like Britain does, with experts who know what they’re doing, instead of sometimes granting contracts to consultants?

Senator Omidvar: Thank you, minister. Am I hearing you say that you are actively considering community benefits in the awarding of government procurement programs?

[Translation]

Senator Miville-Dechêne: You have not been the procurement minister for very long. Based on what you have seen, are our supply chains contaminated? Are you aware of any products made by forced child labour that Canada has procured around the world?

What I know right now is that we have not received — or at least I have not received — useful or clear information on the fact that some of our procurement processes have led to or supported child labour or labour done in unacceptable conditions here at home or elsewhere in the world.

[English]

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: The fact that this question comes from you is very significant, since you, along with many others, worked on getting Davie added to the National Shipbuilding Strategy. Many people know that and are grateful to you.

That being said, over the next few years, a major national maritime hub will be established in the Quebec City area. This hub will have a considerable impact from both a technological and a purely industrial standpoint. It will change the lives of tens of thousands of workers and give contracts to about 1,300 service providers. We know that similar shipbuilders, such as Irving and Seaspan, faced some issues in the early 2010s. Every one of them, including Davie, has had to pay for their technology and production upgrades themselves. That’s what happened in the other provinces, with support from the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and British Columbia. As you pointed out, that’s what happened in Quebec in the spring. The assistance provided to Irving Shipbuilding a few months ago was, as you and we both noted, targeted funding to build combat ships in a way that wasn’t foreseen in the early 2010s. It’s a necessary improvement to reduce costs and delays for the incredibly difficult construction of those 15 combat ships.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: You’re absolutely right about how important confidence is, and that’s why the skilled and experienced public servants at the Canada Border Services Agency, the CBSA, are currently reviewing that contract. It was a complex contract. It includes several dozen contracts and it was complex for all kinds of reasons. Many of those contracts had nothing to do with developing the software; they were for providing advice to public servants or Canadians. We know that 125,000 Canadians had to cross the border every day, and many of them were people who had to bring prescription drugs, food and essential goods into the country. The CBSA’s experts are currently reviewing many components of that contract, and we have confidence in them.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you. I am going to both correct and confirm what you said.

It is incorrect to say that no action has been taken and that no contract has been entered into or discussed with Seaspan, which has been part of the strategy since 2011.

I would be pleased to give you more information about the positive progress being made at this shipyard on the construction of the polar icebreaker.

As for the Davie shipyard, we are obviously talking longer term because it was unfairly and inappropriately excluded from the first National Shipbuilding Strategy in 2011 by the government of the day. Everyone in Quebec and elsewhere in the country is delighted that this mistake was corrected a few months ago. Naturally, we have to work with the shipyard in its current condition, after it was excluded from the first strategy.

We are working very well with the Davie shipyard. Its staff are dynamic and their suppliers’ association is amazing. It travels across the country and around the globe promoting the importance of investing in Quebec City, in Quebec and in Canada, for projects like the construction of the icebreaker they will eventually receive.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you for the question, senator.

The answer is yes and no. It is indeed an important criterion, but it’s not the only one. Among all the criteria that public servants and the people managing these contracts have to take into account, there are others as well. The environmental impact of our procurement process is key — increasingly so — because we know that we can’t keep going in the same direction, from an environmental point of view, because we will hit a wall. We saw the preliminary impact over the past few months in Canada and Quebec.

However, there are other important criteria, such as social inclusion, social participation and obviously efficiency, which, as I was saying, is sometimes improved and supported by other criteria. Again, the social inclusion criterion broadens participation in the procurement process. It supports greater competition in these processes, which means better results for the Canadian government and for Canadians.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you again for that great question.

In regard to community benefits, they include both the social and environmental benefits of using procurement as an important public policy tool.

In regard to social benefits, we’ve already spoken about the importance of supporting various groups whose relative exclusion in the procurement process harms Canadians who are from those groups, but it is also harmful to the overall competitiveness of procurement processes.

When more providers and suppliers are included — including women, Indigenous Canadians and Black-owned or Black-led businesses — everyone benefits. That is the first piece, and the second piece is green procurement.

This is a good statistic: Between 2005 and 2023, investments in properties and federally‑owned buildings decreased the level of greenhouse gas, or GHG, emissions by 60%. Now, in 2023, we have 60% less GHG emissions than in 2005 because of the non-economic impact of investments in our communities, so these are important aspects as well.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you very much. That was a great question, and I would have liked to have listened to it completely. Maybe your second chance will make that possible.

You pointed to the right elements: first, safety; second, the precinct versus the city; and third, the important work with the City of Ottawa.

It has been clear over the last few years — and it is increasingly clear — that the safety of parliamentarians, including senators, must be at the centre of the conversation that we’re having with the City of Ottawa on the future of Wellington Street. It is also true that as we see the enhancement and modernization of our parliamentary facilities, we are moving from a precinct to a parliamentary city. That’s good news, I think, for most Canadians. We’ve seen the beneficial outcomes of this in other countries of the world.

Finally, you are quite correct to point out the important relationship that we need to have with the City of Ottawa. I will meet with the mayor quite soon, and I look forward to reporting on the outcome of that meeting.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you, Senator Dagenais. I don’t know enough about this issue. It falls more within the purview of my colleague, the Minister of Justice. I could ask him to contact you.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you very much. Your question is both fair and legitimate. I will be glad to come back to you with the details that you are seeking. I don’t have these details with me, but I would be glad to do that with the assistance of my officials.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you. Your question is, again, fair, and it will require a long answer. Let me, therefore, point to just two things that you briefly mentioned.

The National Shipbuilding Strategy, I just mentioned earlier the great and long-awaited progress we have been able to make, including the Davie shipyards as the new third shipyard in the new National Shipbuilding Strategy. This is a significant step which will lead to faster delivery of ships that the Coast Guard and other organizations require, at a lower cost, at a higher speed and with greater outcomes for Canadian industry.

On the 5% Indigenous procurement target, I spoke to that earlier. A number of departments have already exceeded that target; others need to work harder. We look forward to posting and revealing the global estimate toward the beginning of 2024.

Hon. Donald Neil Plett (Leader of the Opposition): Minister, two years ago, one of your predecessors was tasked in her mandate letter from the Prime Minister with the following: continue the modernization of procurement practices; renew the Coast Guard and navy fleets; ensure the ongoing delivery of defence procurement; resolve outstanding Phoenix pay system issues; rehabilitate 24 Sussex; replace the Alexandra Bridge, plus build an additional crossing on the Ottawa River; ensure a minimum of 5% of the total value of federal contracts for Indigenous businesses.

Minister, you have not received your mandate letter. Is it because it would only be a copy-and-paste of the old one since nothing has been done on the other one since the last election?

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Great question. We still have some work to do, because the bill was passed after several attempts, thanks in large part to your work, senator. It was a difficult process over the last couple of years. There were some setbacks in terms of parliamentary procedure at some points.

The good news is that the bill finally passed. Now, we have to make regulations. Thankfully, MP McKay, whom you mentioned, is discussing it and working on it as hard as you are. With all the work that you’re both doing, we should be able to do what’s left to be done.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you, that’s a great question. The answer will come from my colleague at the Canada Border Services Agency, or CBSA, the agency that needed to design, implement and support that application. In that $54 million to which you referred, there is a series of contracts whose services and value went well beyond the design of the application itself. It was essential, as we said earlier, to make it possible for tens of thousands of Canadians to cross the border at a time during which it was also important to protect the health and safety of millions of Canadians.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: Thank you for that excellent question. Let me be a bit more clear. There is a clear target of 5% for Indigenous-owned or -operated businesses. We look forward to sharing the initial results of those measures in early 2024.

Similarly, in 2021, we also implemented a plan to diversify the procurement process to increase competition in the awarding of such contracts. Since 2021, there has been a pilot project that has made it possible to help Black-owned or -operated businesses enter into 12 procurement contracts with the Canadian government. The purpose of the pilot project is to determine whether the process is working well, so that we can assess the results it achieves in terms of job creation and identify the challenges that these businesses have perhaps had to face since the pilot project began. We will then see how we can move forward. We could set specific targets for certain groups, including Black-owned or -operated businesses.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: In this chamber, as in the other chamber, there are many people with legal training and lawyers. I am not one of them. I know, however, that it is presumptive and it may not be appropriate to presume the intentions or the actions of the RCMP. The RCMP is independent of the federal government, so to try to interpret what they may be thinking or doing is outside of the scope of parliamentarians.

This being said, I’ve shared information that you knew already, which is that my colleague responsible for the Canada Border Services Agency has had his officials look into the matter through a process that I think we can have confidence in.

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: That’s a great question. I will have to get back to you in more detail. I’m a little bit stumped. I want to make sure I can give you a straightforward answer in the near future.

Hon. Clément Gignac: Thank you for being with us, minister. The world is changing, with a great deal of geopolitical tension. You are responsible for procurement for the Government of Canada. How are you integrating the national security aspect to ensure that our country is not dependent on supply chains, and above all to make our telecommunications and military infrastructures less vulnerable to countries that could be hostile to us, should tensions escalate?

Hon. Jean-Yves Duclos, P.C., M.P., Minister of Public Services and Procurement: You have my assurance. Equally importantly, you have the assurance of my colleague Minister Blair. The fact that the defence budget is now $26 billion and three years from now will be $39 billion speaks to this. Yes, there might be savings to be found in all departments — including mine — but for the DND, $26 billion to $39 billion in three years is, I think, a significant demonstration that we’re taking the needs of the DND seriously.

[Translation]