SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 336 - Sep/16/24

Sep/16/24 8:44:34 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, Ben Perrin has written a book, which I have not read yet, about how these failed policies do not solve the crime issue but actually make it worse. These tough-on-crime policies will not keep Canadians safe; they would actually make it more dangerous for the public safety of Canadians and indigenous people.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Sep/16/24 8:44:34 p.m.
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Ben Perrin.

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Perrin
Ben

Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Sep/16/24 8:44:39 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, first of all, I want to thank the hon. parliamentary secretary for splitting her time with me. Second, I did not want to interrupt. I think it is the first time I have ever yelled anything out in the House, but I remembered the name Benjamin Perrin. He is doing fantastic work in looking at the evidence and realizing things about the policies he used to espouse when he was in Stephen Harper's PMO, such as being tough on drugs and tough on crime. Despite how much he believed they would be helpful at the time, he says they really come down to being dumb on drugs and dumb on crime. How does the hon. parliamentary secretary feel we can best address what I hope to get to in my speech? She is sharing her time with me. Can we ensure better training of police officers? They do not get a lot of training and experience before they hit the streets. Does she think that is part of the solution?

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Ms. Pam Damoff

Sep/16/24 8:45:31 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, former public safety minister Ralph Goodale said to me one time that police officers need as much training in human rights as they do in criminal justice. The RCMP is working with the University of Regina and working to enhance training. We need to make police services safe places for women, for indigenous people and for racialized people to be able to come in and change the culture within the service. There needs to be better training; we also need to do a better job of recruiting a diverse base. Further, we need to look at whether the RCMP is the right service to be responding in indigenous communities and whether the indigenous communities should be designing their own policing model; we need to leave that up to each individual community.

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Ms. Sylvie Bérubé (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ)

Sep/16/24 8:46:45 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I would like to extend my condolences to the families affected. When it comes to the safety of indigenous peoples, could there be police forces? Earlier, I gave the example of a joint police force in Val‑d'Or. Could more funding be allocated for that? Is that a solution? Could the government also provide benefits for police forces? What else could it do for indigenous communities and organizations?

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Ms. Pam Damoff

Sep/16/24 8:47:21 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, yes, absolutely. Police services could be funded better, but I do not know if that is the answer. It falls largely upon the provinces and territories to fund urban police services. However, it is not necessarily having police responding. We need to be supporting those dealing with addictions, mental health issues and homelessness. That would not be driving people into crime, so we need to be getting to the root cause.

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Ms. Elizabeth May (Saanich—Gulf Islands, GP)

Sep/16/24 8:47:55 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my esteemed colleagues who are here tonight. First, I would like to sincerely thank the member for Nunavut. I want to thank my friend, the member of Parliament for Nunavut, for bringing this forward for an emergency debate. It has been an emergency for some time. That is why I was relieved when the Speaker decided that it met the definition of an emergency for debate. However, as the hon. member put it when she made the argument to the Speaker, it is now almost expected that, when police forces are confronted with a first nations person, an indigenous person in this country, the person in question is killed. This happens even on a wellness check, when they are supposed to be sent to make sure that the person in question is safe. It has become far too common. There have been a number of studies in Canada. We can talk about them. I know the specific examples that lead us into the debate tonight. I will start with this APTN headline: “15 days and 6 Indigenous people have died when coming in contact with police across Canada”. The hon. parliamentary secretary quite rightly pointed out that we were told this in the report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and in the report on missing and murdered indigenous women and girls. We were told this in a report that came out in June 2021 from this Parliament's Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security entitled “Systemic Racism in Policing in Canada”. That report refers to a witness, the Hon. Michel Bastarache, who actually said that the culture within the RCMP is “toxic”. Let us be clear: This is not one or two incidents that can be explained away by saying an RCMP officer thought something was a threat because they were faced with an indigenous person who they thought was threatening them. Steven Dedam was shot and killed by the RCMP just earlier this month. After he had been shot three times, he was handcuffed and told he was under arrest as he lay there dying. He had been shot in the chest in Elsipogtog First Nation in the Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and Passamaquoddy territory. That is not the first time. As we know, in June 2020, there were two people killed in the territory of the Mi'kmaq, Maliseet and Passamaquoddy people. Rodney Levi of another New Brunswick first nation was shot and killed by the RCMP on a wellness check. Chantel Moore, a young woman from the territory of Vancouver Island, was killed by a member of the Edmundston, New Brunswick, police force on June 4, 2020. I am honoured to be a friend of her family, and I know them well. Her killing is one for which there are no answers yet; the reports have been whitewashed. She was killed by a lone Edmunston police officer, who was a tall, burly man. He woke her up at three in the morning because he had been called to do a wellness check. He did not have a second officer with him. He shot her four times. She was five foot nothing. This is an insufficiently investigated murder. Let us get back to what kinds of solutions we could look to. I have mentioned a number of reports. One that does not come up very much in this context, although it contains many clues for what we need to do for solutions, is the mass casualty report on the RCMP's massive failure to stop a killer on what is sometimes described as a “shooting spree”, which makes it sound as though he was shopping. It was a murderous rampage by a known dangerous man. He was known to be dangerous because of multiple reports for over a decade before he started killing people in Portapique, Nova Scotia, two years ago in April. He was known because many reports had been made to the RCMP that he had illegal guns. When we read the report, we find that various racialized people had reported him for beating up on or robbing them over the years. It was known that he was a threat to people around him. The RCMP notes to the report say that the RCMP did not believe the complainant. Why would a wealthy denturist beat up on poor and racialized people? We might insert the word “white”. The RCMP never investigated the complaints against him over a 10-year period. The Globe and Mail, the national newspaper, is certainly not a left-wing or radical press; it is establishment with a capital E. The Globe and Mail editorial, after reading the mass casualty report, said the RCMP as an institution must be torn down to its foundations and then the foundations must be dynamited. Those are strong words. When we read that report, we realize that there is institutionalized systemic racism, as well as sexism and the unwillingness to believe that because someone had a domestic violence situation and was reported constantly to be a threat to the life of his intimate partner but was not reported by the intimate partner, there was an issue of coercive control. We have got to get that bill passed while we are here, by the way. However, the issue of systemic racism comes screaming out of the report on the mass casualty report out of Nova Scotia for the killings in Portapique. That report pointed out this issue of training. The RCMP do not get as much training as even municipal police forces. I have talked a lot to the chief of police in Victoria, B.C., where I have watched officers in Victoria, B.C. in the municipal police force de-escalate tense situations and get people mental health supports when they need them. They do not shoot first and ask questions later. I am very grateful to Chief Del Manak in Victoria and those in other municipal forces across Canada. The chief of police in Montreal is another fine example. The hon. parliamentary secretary mentioned police forces in Thunder Bay and Edmundston. We have seen municipal police officers also exhibit a systemic racist attitude toward racialized and indigenous people where guns are pulled when people have been sent out on wellness checks. With respect to solutions, we can go through volumes of reports. From the other place, another expert in this area, Senator Kim Pate, has done a lot of work looking at what has already been mentioned here tonight, which is the expanding population of indigenous women in our prisons. Systemic racism is not confined to the RCMP. Let us be clear: It is a Canada-wide problem. It is manifested in the laws, the expectations, the doctrine of discovery, the Indian Act and we can go on and on. However, it is really critical that we do a couple of things and do them fast. I have said this to the Minister of Public Safety before. We need to take the time to go through the social media of every single person in this country who wears a uniform and carries a gun. That includes the kind of person who actually drove through the gates at Rideau Hall determined to shoot the Prime Minister. We need to go through social profiles of every single person in this country who wears a uniform and carries a gun and look for any evidence of white supremacy, look for people wearing a patch of the thin blue line. A friend of mine was a Fairy Creek supporter to stop the old-growth logging in British Columbia. Recently the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission for the RCMP, just last week, ruled on the police arrest and handcuffing and insistence that somehow my friend from Salt Spring Island was violating the law by refusing to give the RCMP his name. This was the RCMP rogue unit called the Community-Industry Response Group, demanding to search his backpack and then arresting him. In that report, the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission said the RCMP need training in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Their arrest was groundless. However, regarding the abuse and the mistreatment of people in a number of indigenous land defenders' cases, it is clear that there is greater violence directed toward people defending forests or fighting pipelines if they are indigenous, than if they are arrested with kid gloves the way I was so nicely by the RCMP on Burnaby Mountain. I urge everyone watching this debate tonight and participating not to turn the page and think this was the debate for September 16 and now it is over. We have got to take this seriously and ensure proper training. It is not a couple of rotten apples. It is systemic. Get them out of our police forces, protect indigenous lives and ensure that there is no place for racists where they are allowed to wear a uniform and carry a gun.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 8:58:04 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I would like to thank the member for her important intervention. This debate is addressing what I feel is like the tip of an iceberg, and I think she agrees. There are so many examples of other issues with RCMP behaviour. In my riding of Nunavut, I have whole communities that will not call the RCMP because they know that the RCMP will not protect that community from the violence that they are experiencing. We have seen other issues because of the RCMP's behaviour towards indigenous peoples and towards the Black community. There are stories after stories. As complex as this is, I wonder if the member could talk more deeply about what some of the other challenges are, because I do not think it is just law enforcement. After this emergency debate was granted by the Speaker, I received a ton of social media, mostly in favour of the debate, but I also received a lot of vitriol, a lot of racism, saying, “Arrest them, arrest the indigenous peoples. They are the ones who are behaving badly.” I wonder if the member has any messages that she can share with Canadians, showing that this is not an indigenous issue. All of Canada must help make sure that it is not just something that we direct at the RCMP.

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Sep/16/24 8:59:53 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for Nunavut for always being a shining example in this place of how to lead with love. I want to recognize that it is not one or two examples. As she was speaking, I was thinking of Chief Allan Adam of the Athabasca Chipewyan First Nation, who was attacked by the RCMP in a parking lot. What we can do is remember the first calls for justice of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, which is that all settler culture Canadians must read this report. It is on us, those of us who are settler culture Canadians, to face the truth. Truth and reconciliation starts with understanding the truth of 167 years of racism and genocide. We must recognize that individuals, settler culture Canadians, are very uncomfortable with the word racism. They say, “Well, gee, I am not a racist.” White fragility is also an issue. Let us work together at understanding the truth, and figuring out how we, together, turn a page on a horrible history and move forward with love, guided by indigenous wisdom, to love our Mother Earth, care for each other and approach everything with the gratitude of heart, mind and spirit connected.

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Mr. Sébastien Lemire (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ)

Sep/16/24 9:01:24 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands for her humanity and compassion, which she is displaying once again on this very sensitive topic. I also want to take this opportunity to recognize a friend of mine who recently stepped down and who was co-leader with the member for Saanich—Gulf Islands. I wanted to pay tribute to him for his contribution to the debates. He is someone who truly believes in social justice. I wish Jonathan the best of luck in his new endeavours. That being said, let us come back to the issue at hand. A very simple solution that the government could advance rather quickly would be to recognize the indigenous police forces as essential, to have them engage with the communities and to allocate predictable and adequate funding to them. What does my colleague think of this ready-made solution for the communities?

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Ms. Elizabeth May

Sep/16/24 9:02:20 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I thank my esteemed colleague, the member for Abitibi—Témiscamingue. I am deeply moved by his words about our friend, my old friend Jonathan Pedneault, who has now stepped down as my deputy leader of the Green Party of Canada. As my colleague put it so well, Jonathan always makes decisions with human rights issues front of mind. I think my colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue is right. It is up to indigenous peoples to decide for themselves how best to protect their society. We need to hire indigenous people in law enforcement so that first nations can exercise their sovereignty. This issue affects all peoples in Canada. As a non-indigenous person, I do not think I will ever trust the RCMP. I lived in small rural village in Cape Breton, and I know too well that the RCMP are not there to protect our lives.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale (Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, CPC)

Sep/16/24 9:03:48 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, as I rise to speak at this emergency debate, I would like to take a moment to recognize the six indigenous people who lost their lives on whom this debate centres, specifically Steven Dedam, Danny Knife, Hoss Lightning, Jack Piche, Tammy Bateman and Jason West, and to acknowledge the trauma and loss that their families, friends and communities are suffering at this time. Indigenous communities have faced some systemic injustices within the realm of law enforcement. The history of indigenous policing in Canada is fraught with challenges marked by a legacy of colonialism, discrimination and mistrust. Indigenous peoples have a unique cultural, social and historical context that must be recognized and respected in the realm of policing. As we have witnessed time and time again, traditional methods of law enforcement often fail to adequately address the needs and values of indigenous communities. As a result, there is a pressing need for a paradigm shift in policing practices. I would like to focus a lot of my intervention tonight on the lack of commitment this government has toward community policing in northern, rural and remote areas, and its failure to support the first nations and Inuit policing program in the country. For the information of those at home, and perhaps for some of my colleagues here in this House, Public Safety Canada manages and oversees the first nations and Inuit policing program, which was established in 1991. Under this program, policing services are provided either by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, through community tripartite agreements negotiated by the federal government, provinces and/or territories and indigenous communities, or by communities' own police services under self-administered agreements. Efforts toward indigenous policing must be guided by principles of reconciliation, cultural sensitivity and community empowerment. Part of the problem has been an Ottawa-knows-best paternalistic approach to the safety needs of indigenous people and indigenous communities. It is essential to engage indigenous communities in the design and implementation of policing strategies, ensuring that their voices are indeed heard and their perspectives valued, meaning a true partnership. For too long, indigenous communities have borne the brunt of systemic injustices, including disproportionately high rates of crime and victimization. One of the most pressing types of criminality facing indigenous people on reserves is violence: domestic violence, sexual assault and homicide. Indigenous women are disproportionately affected by that violence, with rates of homicide and missing persons cases far exceeding national averages. These alarming statistics underscore the urgent need for targeted interventions, police and support services to address the underlying factors contributing to violence within indigenous communities. Substance abuse and addiction are also significant challenges facing first nations people on reserve, contributing to a range of criminal behaviours including drug trafficking, poverty and crime. Intergenerational trauma and socio-economic disparities have contributed to high rates of substance abuse among indigenous populations. Addressing these underlying factors requires holistic, culturally sensitive approaches that prioritize healing, rehabilitation and community supports. Overall, the Liberal government's drug policies have been catastrophic, with over 42,000 Canadians dying from drug overdoses. In British Columbia, where this Prime Minister carried out his hard drugs experiment, there has been a nearly 400% increase in overdose deaths. The Liberal Minister of Mental Health still refuses to acknowledge that the Liberals' dangerous policy was indeed a failure. We must not only get tough on crime, especially when it comes to repeat violent offenders, but we must address the socio-economic disparities between non-indigenous and indigenous people. Socio-economic factors such as poverty, unemployment and inadequate housing contribute to the vulnerability of indigenous people to involvement in criminal activity. Limited economic opportunities coupled with social isolation and a lack of access to essential service exacerbate the risk factors for criminal behaviour. Investing in education, economic development and infrastructure on reserves is crucial to addressing these systemic inequalities and creating opportunities for positive change within indigenous communities. These are all factors that a future Conservative government, with guidance from indigenous stakeholders, must tackle if we are to end the tragedies like the ones we continue to experience and to improve community safety and quality of life for indigenous men, women and children. The challenges facing indigenous policing in Canada are multi-faceted and deeply rooted, from inadequate resources to entrenched biases, and these challenges continue to undermine safety, trust and the well-being of indigenous communities. Indigenous police services often face jurisdictional and legal complexities that impede their ability to fulfill their mandate effectively. The overlapping jurisdiction between federal, provincial and indigenous communities often creates confusion and delays in responding to issues on indigenous territories. One of the common complaints I hear is that provincial and federal police services will not enforce community bylaws. Clear protocols and agreements must be established to ensure seamless coordination and co-operation among all stakeholders in the justice system. One of the foremost challenges is the chronic underfunding of indigenous police services. Many indigenous police services operate with limited resources, hindering their ability to adequately respond to emergencies, investigate crimes and provide essential services to their communities. This funding gap not only compromises public safety but also perpetuates inequalities in access to justice for indigenous peoples. Indigenous peoples deserve to feel safe in their communities. It is crucial that indigenous police services have the same powers as non-indigenous police services and have the proper and adequate resources to do the job they are expected to do, especially when it comes to the funding model, often done on a year-to-year basis. This makes it almost impossible for these police services to continue to plan, recruit and continue with officers who have experience. Indigenous policing resources are stretched thin and face discrimination in Ottawa. In meetings with indigenous police services across the country, I have heard harsh criticism for the current model. Public Safety Canada would not fund specialized units like domestic assault, major crime, homicide or canine units, and it took a court case in June 2023 to declare that it was discriminatory and to throw those conditions out of the PSC agreements. Thirty-eight per cent of indigenous police officers do not have backup while patrolling their communities. There are too few officers to keep up with the growing gang problems on reserves. Outside of Ontario, first nations' police officers do not have pensions, benefits and access to professional development. Indigenous officers make 25% less in salary than their non-indigenous colleagues. In 2023, the Treaty Three Police Service, the Anishinabek Police Services, and the United Chiefs and Councils of Manitoulin Anishnaabe Police had to take the government to court over discriminatory terms and conditions in their service agreements. Together, these first nations police organizations serve 45 first nations communities and around 30,000 people across northern Ontario, and they had to operate on a line of credit while the government dithered, putting the communities and people at risk. In 2022, after the mass killing at James Smith Cree Nation in Saskatchewan, the Prime Minister promised to work toward making indigenous policing an essential service in Canada. However, here we are now, nearly three years later, with, sadly, no changes. In 2020, the Liberals promised to bring forward legislation to declare first nations and Inuit police services an essential service, and yet, still nothing. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls calls for justice, section 5.4, called for immediate and dramatic transformation of indigenous policing, including civilian oversight bodies to audit and investigate claims of police misconduct. That was almost six years ago and still counting. In 2024, the Auditor General's office released a damning report on the status of first nations and Inuit policing in Canada. The first nations and Inuit policing program is a cost-sharing program. About 52% of its funding comes from the federal government and 48% comes from the provinces or territories. The Office of the Auditor General found several glaring issues with Public Safety Canada's management of the program. Despite funding increased to this program, the Office of the Auditor General found that $13 million of the funds earmarked for the 2022-23 fiscal year went unspent. As of October 2023, Public Safety Canada expected that over $45 million in program funding would be left undistributed for that fiscal year. The OAG also found that Public Safety Canada had poorly managed the program. Specifically, it found that Public Safety Canada had poor fiscal management oversight, had limited expansion of the program despite additional funding, lacked an approach to support equitable funding decisions, lacked consistent engagement and partnership with communities, and lacked the information to measure the program's effectiveness. Furthermore, the RCMP did not consistently deliver on its responsibilities under that program. Specifically, the RCMP had an insufficient number of officers in dedicated communities, no requirement for culturally specific training to understand the culture of the community being served, inconsistent implementation and monitoring of whether policing services promote partnership with communities, and no information on program effectiveness. I should note that the RCMP is not party to community tripartite agreements. Public Safety Canada signs these agreements with the provinces and territories, and between first nations or Inuit communities, without bothering to confirm that the RCMP actually has the ability to meet the terms of the agreement. If that does not define a failed Ottawa-knows-best approach, I am not sure what does. In fact, this past April, at an indigenous and northern affairs committee hearing, Public Safety Canada indicated that it is currently in the process of co-developing federal legislation intended to recognize first nations policing as an essential service. During her testimony before the committee, one of the directors of the Office of the Auditor General noted that the new legislation is intended to apply only to self-administered agreements and not to community tripartite agreements. This means that the communities, under tripartite agreements, that are policed by the RCMP and municipal police forces would not be regarded as essential, which is the key to this whole issue. For context, there are only 36 self-administered police agreements in Canada. That would leave the vast majority of first nations and Inuit communities without the essential designation for police services. Historical trauma and intergenerational mistrust continue to cast a shadow over indigenous communities and the RCMP, including, where applicable, municipal police relations. The legacy of colonialism, forced assimilation and residential schools has left deep scars on indigenous communities, contributing to a profound mistrust of authority figures, including the police. Rebuilding trust and repairing these relationships will require genuine efforts at reconciliation, acknowledgement of past wrongs and meaningful engagement with indigenous communities in the development of policing policies and practices. In addition, a future government plan on indigenous policing must prioritize the recruitment, training and retention of indigenous officers. Representation matters. It matters deeply in law enforcement. Indigenous peoples deserve to see themselves reflected in the institutions that serve and protect their communities. Additionally, indigenous policing initiatives should prioritize restorative justice approaches, with an emphasis on healing, rehabilitation and community cohesion over punitive measures. Traditional indigenous justice practices offer valuable insights into resolving conflicts and restoring harmony within communities. This does not mean there are not consequences for crime, but those consequences reflect historical and traditional indigenous community responses to those crimes. Where appropriate, these alternative justice incentives could have real and lasting positive outcomes for indigenous communities. One of the key strengths of restorative justice lies in its emphasis on dialogue and relationship building. By bringing together victims, offenders and community members in a safe and supportive environment, restorative justice fosters empathy, understanding and mutual respect. Through open and honest communication, individuals can confront the harm done by those actions, take responsibility for their behaviour and work toward repairing the harm done. Moreover, restorative justice practices have been shown to be effective in reducing crime rates and promoting long-term community safety, and we do that by addressing the root causes of crime and the needs of all affected parties. Restorative justice helps to break the cycle of violence and create a more just and comprehensive society. As I conclude, I would like to leave us all with this, which I have said a few times in my speech. Many indigenous communities have a fraught history with external law enforcement agencies. It is marked with experiences of discrimination, violence and systemic racism. Indigenous-led policing helps to address these historical grievances by involving community members directly in the process of maintaining safety and order. This approach helps to rebuild trust, making it more likely that community members will engage positively with law enforcement and co-operate in matters of public safety. Traditional law enforcement methods can sometimes fail to address the root causes within indigenous communities. Indigenous-led initiatives, on the other hand, can incorporate culturally relevant practices and community wisdom. This approach can lead to a more sustainable solution to crime and conflict, tailored to the specific needs and values of a community. When indigenous people can serve as police officers within their own communities, it empowers them to take that active role in shaping their own futures. This representation, as I said before, is absolutely crucial because it ensures that the policies and practices of law enforcement reflect the values and needs of indigenous peoples. It also provides a role model for younger generations, inspiring them to envision and work toward leadership roles in their own communities. Their cultural competence allows them to navigate complex social dynamics with a sensitivity that external officers might lack. For example, indigenous officers are more likely to understand and honour traditional practices and customs, which can be crucial in resolving conflicts and engaging with community members in a respectful manner. This cultural insight prevents misunderstandings and fosters a policing approach that is both empathetic and effective. In conclusion, acknowledging the historic injustices faced by indigenous peoples is essential for building a more equitable society. In investing in these indigenous-led police services, we would take concrete steps to address these injustices and contribute to the reconciliation process. This support demonstrates a commitment to repairing relationships and fostering understanding between indigenous communities and the broader societies. Indigenous policing in Canada is not merely a matter of policy; it is a moral imperative. It is a testament to our commitment to justice, equality and reconciliation. Together, let us work toward a future where indigenous policing reflects the values and aspirations of all.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 9:22:30 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I am actually quite confused by the member's intervention because what he spoke about goes against a lot of what the Conservatives' messaging is, including always talking about being tough on crime and all those kinds of things. I wonder if the member can describe for us how he will try to influence his party to commit to ensuring that what he said is something all of his caucus will work hard on from now on, because part of what has led to this emergency debate today is not just broken promises but cutting funding to important programs when the Conservatives were in government, specifically national crime prevention centres in Canada, as well as the Aboriginal Healing Foundation. That was so hurtful, especially because a Nunavut Conservative MP was the minister and it was the Conservatives who cut that important program. How can we reconcile what you are saying, and what will you do to make sure your full caucus would implement what you are envisioning as better policing for indigenous peoples?

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The Assistant Deputy Speaker (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès)

Sep/16/24 9:24:07 p.m.
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I understand the hon. member's emotions, but I did not intervene or say anything. The hon. member for Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:24:17 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will try to answer as much of the member's question as I can. I wrote down notes. Hopefully I have it all. As the critic for Crown-indigenous relations and indigenous services for the opposition, it is part of my job, my mandate, to develop policy that will be put into our next election platform. I note that some of the things I mentioned today were from previous policy documents that we had released in previous elections. They talk about giving more power to indigenous police services and essential services, about funding them correctly and about restorative justice practices. Something our party, myself and others on this side of the House are talking about today is the direction our party is moving in regarding indigenous justice and indigenous policing. I mentioned funding, as well as essential services and ensuring that the “Ottawa knows best” approach is not the one we continue to lead by. It has to be grassroots-led and about listening to the voices that are telling us what their issues are. That goes to the justice piece of my speech when I was talking about how each individual community might have different visions of how they wish to run a justice system, whether it is through restorative justice, through their law enforcement and policing side or through indigenous police services. Perhaps they want other aspects of the law enforcement angle. Giving power back to these individual communities is key, but to the member's point, as I talked about, it is about ensuring proper funding so that we do not have an unlevel playing field between indigenous and non-indigenous police services or even in the justice system in general.

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Ms. Pam Damoff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Consular Affairs), Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:26:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, there was much in the hon. member's speech that I agreed with. When it comes to funding first nations policing, I would remind the hon. member that when the Harper government Conservatives were in power, first nations policing was grossly underfunded. One of the first things the public safety minister did was engage on that. In 2018, $291 million was put into first nations policing, and in 2021, there was another $540 million. The hon. member talked about how not all of that money was spent, but he also talked about the importance of engaging with communities. I hope he would agree that these programs for first nations policing need to be led by indigenous peoples, as does the co-development of legislation. These are hard things to do that require hard work, and sometimes they require time. I am wondering if the hon. member will commit that his party will support these additional funding investments and will ensure that first nations policing is co-developed with indigenous peoples and the Assembly of First Nations, not just dictated to them by the federal government.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:27:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the crux of my speech was about how we need to level the playing field between indigenous police services and non-indigenous police services. During my speech, I mentioned the disparities in wages, benefits and training. Those are all pretty important things when talking about policing, and not only with recruitment but with retention. I mentioned the funding model and that many of these police services, like the ones in northern Ontario, were on year-to-year contracts. The deadline for their funding lapsed and they had to run police services on a line of credit. That was pretty troubling to the chief of police and members themselves. They were trying to police 30,000 people as indigenous police services, and they did not even know if their funding was going to continue. As for making it an essential service, I mentioned that a few times in my speech. My answer to the NDP talked about that as well. I agree with the member that these things do take time, absolutely. In 2022, the Prime Minister promised to work toward making indigenous police services an essential service, but it is three years later and still nothing has happened. The Liberals have been in power for nine years. The Auditor General came out with a report that said some pretty important things needed to be addressed in addition to policing, and here we are talking about them because some tragedies have happened. We need to accelerate this conversation.

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Ms. Sylvie Bérubé (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ)

Sep/16/24 9:29:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we are taking part in a very important emergency debate this evening at a time when six people have died and violence is on the rise. I would therefore like to know what solutions a Conservative government would propose. I would also like to know if such a government could build good relations with indigenous communities and implement the recommendations of the report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls that have not yet been implemented.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:29:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the work we in the opposition have been doing with indigenous communities and leaders shows our commitment to listening to voices on the ground level and reducing and hopefully eliminating this “Ottawa knows best” approach. We have already announced a number of policies that will take control of communities away from Ottawa through a resource charge, which will allow communities to keep the tax revenue generated on their land rather than sending it to Ottawa. We will announce many more. However, the crux of my speech was about getting rid of the “Ottawa knows best” approach because it has not worked for 155-plus years. If we continue on this path, it will not work for another 155 years, and we will continue to have these conversations. We need to provide optional legislation, if needed, for those who want to do different and unique things, and strip down the “Ottawa knows best” bureaucracy that continues to fail indigenous people. One part of this is listening to the voices that want to empower indigenous people to become police officers through indigenous police services, but we need to ensure that they are on a level playing field and not handcuffed when they need to do their jobs appropriately.

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Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC)

Sep/16/24 9:31:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the speech that my colleague from Ontario gave, and I thank him for the significant amount of work he has done with indigenous leaders and communities across this country. I am wondering if he could share with this House some examples, even sometimes born out of the ashes of tragedy, where spaces or opportunities for reconciliation have come about and indigenous communities have seen relationships restored. Are there instances with indigenous police where productive relationships are built and where high-quality policing is able to support victims? I know that my colleague has had many conversations, both tough ones and a number of encouraging ones, on that.

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