SoVote

Context: House Hansard - 336 - Sep/16/24

Sep/16/24 9:24:17 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I will try to answer as much of the member's question as I can. I wrote down notes. Hopefully I have it all. As the critic for Crown-indigenous relations and indigenous services for the opposition, it is part of my job, my mandate, to develop policy that will be put into our next election platform. I note that some of the things I mentioned today were from previous policy documents that we had released in previous elections. They talk about giving more power to indigenous police services and essential services, about funding them correctly and about restorative justice practices. Something our party, myself and others on this side of the House are talking about today is the direction our party is moving in regarding indigenous justice and indigenous policing. I mentioned funding, as well as essential services and ensuring that the “Ottawa knows best” approach is not the one we continue to lead by. It has to be grassroots-led and about listening to the voices that are telling us what their issues are. That goes to the justice piece of my speech when I was talking about how each individual community might have different visions of how they wish to run a justice system, whether it is through restorative justice, through their law enforcement and policing side or through indigenous police services. Perhaps they want other aspects of the law enforcement angle. Giving power back to these individual communities is key, but to the member's point, as I talked about, it is about ensuring proper funding so that we do not have an unlevel playing field between indigenous and non-indigenous police services or even in the justice system in general.

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Ms. Pam Damoff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Consular Affairs), Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:26:16 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, there was much in the hon. member's speech that I agreed with. When it comes to funding first nations policing, I would remind the hon. member that when the Harper government Conservatives were in power, first nations policing was grossly underfunded. One of the first things the public safety minister did was engage on that. In 2018, $291 million was put into first nations policing, and in 2021, there was another $540 million. The hon. member talked about how not all of that money was spent, but he also talked about the importance of engaging with communities. I hope he would agree that these programs for first nations policing need to be led by indigenous peoples, as does the co-development of legislation. These are hard things to do that require hard work, and sometimes they require time. I am wondering if the hon. member will commit that his party will support these additional funding investments and will ensure that first nations policing is co-developed with indigenous peoples and the Assembly of First Nations, not just dictated to them by the federal government.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:27:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the crux of my speech was about how we need to level the playing field between indigenous police services and non-indigenous police services. During my speech, I mentioned the disparities in wages, benefits and training. Those are all pretty important things when talking about policing, and not only with recruitment but with retention. I mentioned the funding model and that many of these police services, like the ones in northern Ontario, were on year-to-year contracts. The deadline for their funding lapsed and they had to run police services on a line of credit. That was pretty troubling to the chief of police and members themselves. They were trying to police 30,000 people as indigenous police services, and they did not even know if their funding was going to continue. As for making it an essential service, I mentioned that a few times in my speech. My answer to the NDP talked about that as well. I agree with the member that these things do take time, absolutely. In 2022, the Prime Minister promised to work toward making indigenous police services an essential service, but it is three years later and still nothing has happened. The Liberals have been in power for nine years. The Auditor General came out with a report that said some pretty important things needed to be addressed in addition to policing, and here we are talking about them because some tragedies have happened. We need to accelerate this conversation.

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Ms. Sylvie Bérubé (Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, BQ)

Sep/16/24 9:29:22 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, we are taking part in a very important emergency debate this evening at a time when six people have died and violence is on the rise. I would therefore like to know what solutions a Conservative government would propose. I would also like to know if such a government could build good relations with indigenous communities and implement the recommendations of the report of the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls that have not yet been implemented.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:29:54 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, the work we in the opposition have been doing with indigenous communities and leaders shows our commitment to listening to voices on the ground level and reducing and hopefully eliminating this “Ottawa knows best” approach. We have already announced a number of policies that will take control of communities away from Ottawa through a resource charge, which will allow communities to keep the tax revenue generated on their land rather than sending it to Ottawa. We will announce many more. However, the crux of my speech was about getting rid of the “Ottawa knows best” approach because it has not worked for 155-plus years. If we continue on this path, it will not work for another 155 years, and we will continue to have these conversations. We need to provide optional legislation, if needed, for those who want to do different and unique things, and strip down the “Ottawa knows best” bureaucracy that continues to fail indigenous people. One part of this is listening to the voices that want to empower indigenous people to become police officers through indigenous police services, but we need to ensure that they are on a level playing field and not handcuffed when they need to do their jobs appropriately.

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Mr. Damien Kurek (Battle River—Crowfoot, CPC)

Sep/16/24 9:31:37 p.m.
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Madam Speaker, I appreciate the speech that my colleague from Ontario gave, and I thank him for the significant amount of work he has done with indigenous leaders and communities across this country. I am wondering if he could share with this House some examples, even sometimes born out of the ashes of tragedy, where spaces or opportunities for reconciliation have come about and indigenous communities have seen relationships restored. Are there instances with indigenous police where productive relationships are built and where high-quality policing is able to support victims? I know that my colleague has had many conversations, both tough ones and a number of encouraging ones, on that.

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Mr. Jamie Schmale

Sep/16/24 9:32:42 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will give a good, positive example from what the province of Alberta is doing, because it often leads the way when dealing with indigenous communities. We can look at what the Siksika are doing. They are working to build their own justice system. In fact, I believe construction on a new courthouse has already started where they will be able to implement their own restorative justice practices. We can look at what Alberta has done with police service contracts. We were talking about those doing one-year contracts, but Alberta in many cases is moving toward three-year funding models, which give some predictability to indigenous police services. Alberta is moving in that direction, and I think other provinces and the federal government need to do the same, because the conversation has been going on too long. We need to see action. Listening to the voices on the ground is exactly what we need to be doing more of.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos (Saint-Laurent, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:33:54 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Winnipeg Centre. Before I begin, I would like to acknowledge that Canada's Parliament is located on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people. In less than one month, Canada has become witness to the tragic deaths of no fewer than six people from first nations communities across our country. Although the circumstances in each incident varied as greatly as their age ranges, with the youngest among them just 15 years old and the eldest 57, common to all of them was their involvement in police-related incidents in the final moments of their lives. Tragically, these are not the only examples of these incidents. We do not have to look far in the media, in cities and in towns from coast to coast to coast to find other examples of people from first nations communities who have died in similar incidents. Make no mistake that each is a tragedy and each speaks to deeper and more widespread problems that exist here in Canada. Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada are not policing agencies. The mandate and authority related to the administration of the justice system in Canada are not within their purview. These departments, on the other hand, do have an important role to play in building a new relationship with indigenous peoples and in promoting their well-being and safety. This is a priority for these departments and for the Government of Canada. The primary objective of these departments is supporting indigenous peoples in their efforts toward self-determination and empowering them in shaping the future of their communities. That mandate includes ensuring that indigenous peoples and communities have access to the services they require, including health, education and social services. Our vision is one in which indigenous peoples independently deliver services and address the socio-economic conditions in their communities. The administration of justice, which includes policing and enforcement, is a topic of discussion at a number of tables across the country, led by Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, that are looking at ways of recognizing rights and self-determination. We support a way forward on a rights-based approach while being mindful that policing is one element of the broader justice system. Given this, there are immediate needs and longer-term goals, as well as opportunities to proactively address some of the gaps identified through reports, recent engagements, consultations and even litigation. I am happy to hear my colleagues on both sides of the House speak about emergency measures that will save lives in situations similar to those we have been discussing this evening. I hope that such proposals, if they can be feasibly deployed, will make a meaningful difference, a difference of life and death, it is fair to say, in future encounters between people from first nations communities and law enforcement professionals. I would like to touch upon some of the programs that Indigenous Services Canada has co-developed with the support of leaders from indigenous communities across the country. The first is the pathways to safe indigenous communities initiative. Community services are an important part of supporting community safety and well-being. Indigenous Services Canada helps first nations, Inuit and Métis communities and partners, both on and off reserve, to implement indigenous-designed projects that improve community safety and well-being. I stress that these projects are not designed and led by officials from the Government of Canada. Rather, they are developed by indigenous partners to create a broad spectrum of community support. The pathways to safe indigenous communities initiative is providing $120 million over five years between 2021 and 2026 to assist first nations, Inuit and Métis communities and partners, both on and off reserve, to implement indigenous-designed projects to improve community safety and well-being. This initiative supports projects that recognize the importance of traditional knowledge and practices that contribute to greater community safety and well-being, recognize holistic models of community safety and well-being and address existing and emerging needs related to the safety and well-being of indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQI+ people. Most of the initiatives we have heard about today are led by Public Safety Canada and administered through the department's first nations and Inuit policing program, or FNIPP. I will, however, say that Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada play a supportive role in the matter of indigenous policing by giving advice to Public Safety on the engagement with indigenous communities on policing legislation. The FNIPP was created in 1991 with the aim of enhancing community policing services, supporting culturally responsive policing in first nations and Inuit communities and recognizing input from indigenous communities of policing services received. Indigenous peoples, like all people in Canada, have a right to receive culturally appropriate and respectful police services, and contributing to safer and healthier indigenous communities is a priority for the Government of Canada. The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act Action Plan commits Canada to leveraging the FNIPP and engaging and working with indigenous communities and with provinces and territories on approaches to enhance policing services that are professional, dedicated, and responsive to first nation and Inuit communities. The costs to run the program are shared between the federal government and the province or territory, while provinces and territories have jurisdiction over operational policing requirements and priorities, and the federal government acts as a funding partner. I am pleased to say that the FNIPP has resulted in dedicated, culturally responsive policing services being established in many first nations communities that would not otherwise have a dedicated on-site policing presence. The federal government is committed to building on the success of this program. Budget 2021 announced up to $540 million over five years beginning in 2021-22 and $126.8 million ongoing to support Indigenous communities that are currently served under the FNIPP and to expand the program into new communities. With this funding, the Government of Canada has been working with first nations and Inuit communities and with provinces and territories to address priority needs. Work is already under way on several other key related initiatives, such as to co-develop legislation that would recognize first nations police services as essential services, to work with provinces and territories to identify improvements to program governance with a view to delivering funding faster, and to revisit the program management relationship with the RCMP to ensure that officer availability is more readily considered and integrated in program management decisions. In addition, the Government of Canada has committed to supporting improved community police relations by working with first nations communities, provinces and territories to support community safety officer projects and community police discussions. At the status of women committee, we heard from countless indigenous women and girls during our study on the red dress alert. Most of them do not trust the police, and there is a lot of work that still needs to be done, regardless of what has already been done. There are several communities that are examples to follow, in which the community is quite close and has built a relationship with the police, and where the police have made an effort. However, there are very few examples, and across Canada a lot more work needs to be done. I mentioned at the outset of these remarks that Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada are not policing agencies. They are not mandated or authorized to provide the types of community services that are performed by law enforcement officials. What we can do, on the other hand, is to provide supports for those professionals and to remember the first nations communities from coast to coast to coast to ensure that people are safe in their homes and in their neighbourhoods. The Government of Canada takes the issue of indigenous safety and well-being very seriously. We are committed to walking the shared path of reconciliation with indigenous people and will continue to work in partnership with first nations and Inuit people and organizations, as well as our external partners, to develop effective solutions. Our end goal is to make sure indigenous peoples from coast to coast to coast are safe and adequately housed. It is also about building capacity, developing skills and providing supports on the ground so indigenous communities can reach their full potential. Meegwetch.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 9:42:29 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I do appreciate some of the things the member shared regarding some of the work that is going on, but there are a lot of gaps still that are happening. Some of it, I think, is very much policy-driven, because I cannot see it being legislated as part of a rule of law. I would like to ask, for example, about criminalizing land defenders. The RCMP is famous for enforcing policies that criminalize land defenders, like the Wet'suwet'en chiefs in B.C. I wonder whether she can share with us what the Liberal government envisions about ensuring that we are doing less to criminalize indigenous peoples, while making sure that we are doing a better job of protecting indigenous peoples' rights and their inherent right to protect the environment.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos

Sep/16/24 9:43:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I believe that there is no one better in the House to provide input. I think that the government should listen, and that is the whole point. The thing is that communities, indigenous communities, need to be the ones at the forefront, letting the government know what exactly is needed in order to create a safe space and environment for them. I know that the government has already opened up consultations. It has made that relationship stronger, and I hope that the government continues to do that. I know that is the intention of the government.

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Ms. Pam Damoff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Consular Affairs), Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:44:29 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I know that the hon. member has done a lot of work on the status of women committee, and one of the studies we did there was on indigenous women in the criminal justice system. That was quite a few years ago. I just wonder whether the hon. member could talk about the impact of colonial policies on indigenous women and girls, and the impact they are having on their interactions with the police. I believe that the member for Winnipeg Centre was saying that today the red dress alert study was tabled in the House, and perhaps the hon. member could talk a bit about that as well.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos

Sep/16/24 9:45:14 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, yes, that is the case. On the committee, we have done a lot of work to better the relationship between the government and these women and girls who suffer more than anybody else in the country and who are victimized more often than anybody else in the country. This is something we need to take extremely seriously. The fact is that the current laws we have in our country are not necessarily the ones that are protecting these women and girls the most, and I think we need to do a lot more work in order to listen to what they need. One of the things we heard coming out of the study was that this needs to be indigenous-led. It cannot be led by the Government of Canada; it really needs to have the input of indigenous leaders and indigenous women and girls who know what they need in order to be safe and who can really give input. Without that input, we will not make the positive changes, and we have been making positive changes because we have been listening. I hope that continues.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:46:31 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, one of the things I have been encouraged by is a local group, a club that I made reference to earlier, the Bear Clan Patrol, which is very well established. For many years they have had different levels of government and different political parties participate in some of the patrols that are taking place One of the single best things I see that it has accomplished is bringing community members and improving relationships with community members along with elected officials and law enforcement agencies. In fact, it is more than just one law enforcement agency. It has attracted a great deal of attention in North America, and I am wondering whether the member can just provide her thoughts in regard to how community initiatives can help advance reconciliation by bringing the different stakeholders together.

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Ms. Emmanuella Lambropoulos

Sep/16/24 9:47:34 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I believe that any initiatives that bring the communities to the elected officials to let them know what exactly their communities need are going to be beneficial, and that is the key. It is really about communication. Indigenous-led initiatives are the ones that are going to make a difference within their communities. Here in Ottawa, we do not necessarily know what people in their communities back home are needing, and obviously we are not necessarily responding to all of their needs right here in Ottawa. We need to hear from them. We need to make those channels more readily available, so any initiatives that make that communication easier are going to be beneficial.

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Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP)

Sep/16/24 9:48:26 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by thanking my good colleague, the member for Nunavut, for requesting this emergency debate. I also want to give a shout-out to my good friend and colleague Kim Pate, on the Senate side, who has done tremendous work in this area as well. This is a topic, as we know, that is often neglected by politicians, and quite frankly the media normalizes systemic violence against indigenous people. Police brutality against people of colour, particularly indigenous people and Black people, BIPOC people, is nothing new in this country. However, recently the extent of police violence against indigenous people has grown to such a shocking level that it cannot be ignored by our leaders. Given that it is our duty to promote reconciliation, the federal government must end the ongoing legacy of settler violence that is being perpetrated through police brutality, and I want to give some examples of that. Between 2017 and 2020, an indigenous person in Canada was 10 times more likely to have been shot and killed by a police officer than a white person was. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association recently reported that while indigenous people make up 5.1% of people living in Canada, they represent 16.2% of people killed in police-involved deaths. There is no centralized, updated data set that exists that tracks deaths and provides information about the person, location, implicated police service, type of force used and many other contextual details. Much of what we rely on to understand these cases are “official documents” like police oversight body and media releases that contain limited details and tell only a one-sided police narrative, which is something that has often been cited and complained about by the public in Winnipeg with its current independent investigation unit. Researchers have also found that the use of lethal force by police was on the rise, especially since the start of the pandemic, between 2011 and 2022. Lethal force was 66.5% higher than in the previous decade, with indigenous and Black people being disproportionately impacted. I share this because it is nothing new. In fact in the last two weeks, we witnessed six cases of police brutality resulting in the deaths of indigenous people. This included cases of unnecessary force in response to people undergoing things like mental health crises; negligence resulting in the death of an unhoused person, like what I witnessed in Winnipeg; a photo of an unsheltered woman being removed by six patrol officers for sleeping on a bench in Winnipeg; and the lethal force used against a 15 year old. To me, it is unconscionable that our society is treating people made most vulnerable by systems with violence rather than uplifting them and treating them as human beings. I want to give my sympathies to the latest victims' families, and I want to say the victims' names. We must say their names, because they were human beings who were deserving of respect, dignity and human rights, something that was robbed from them and in turn hurt families and those who are left behind. They are Jack Piche, age 31; Hoss Lightning-Saddleback, age 15; Tammy Bateman, a woman in her 30s; Jason West, age 57; and Steven Dedam, age 33. However, as I said, this is not anything new. In fact, in April 2020, in the city of Winnipeg, three indigenous people were killed in a span of 10 days: Eishia Hudson, age 16; Stewart Kevin Andrews, age 22; and Jason Collins, age 36. In these cases, the Independent Investigation Unit of Manitoba laid no criminal charges. It is a unit that has been criticized by the hon. former senator Murray Sinclair. Today, just before coming to the debate, I spoke to the family of William Walter Ahmo, who was incarcerated in a provincial jail. The violence against indigenous people does not just happen on the streets with police; it also happens within our penitentiaries. On February 7, William Walter Ahmo had an emotional breakdown after a guard made a racist comment toward him. Racism is so normalized in our justice system that indigenous people such as the Wet'suwet'en have to listen to racist comments from the RCMP. The Winnipeg city police said it was up to indigenous people to search for their loved ones in a landfill. It was up to us. It could come from a current city councillor or the officer on guard in the prison making a racist comment to William, a young man struggling with mental health and dealing with intergenerational trauma, and he responded. Fourteen guards brought him down to get him under control, and as a result of excessive force, he lost his life. This evening I asked his mother, “Can I share your words?” She said, “Do you know how it felt having to watch my son lose his life? It was like having an out-of-body experience, watching my son yell over and over and over again, 'I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe'.” The chief medical examiner ruled it a homicide. The Court of King's Bench let the guards off. This is a system that is broken, and the result of these persistent cuts and underfunding of vital social services fall the hardest on indigenous people. For example, Iggy Dedam was the third indigenous person in recent years to be shot and killed by police during a wellness check in New Brunswick. Had he been provided with the health care supports he needed, he probably would be alive today. In the city of Winnipeg, Tammy Bateman was hit by a police cruiser driving through an encampment at Fort Rouge Park. Putting aside the gross negligence of the officer driving the cruiser, we again see the impacts that the housing crisis has had on indigenous people, many of whom lack a home they can find safety in. During question period, I asked the Liberal government why the Liberal government is failing to honour its legal obligation to fund health services to first nations youth through Jordan's principle. According to Cindy Blackstock, there are between 40,000 and 80,000 Jordan's principle requests that Indigenous Services Canada has not processed or opened. When first nations children and youth are denied health services they desperately need, they are more likely to encounter police rather than health care professionals when undergoing a mental health crisis, and this is costing lives. This is not another tragedy: This is elected officials willfully turning a blind eye on a system filled with systemic racism in policing and at all levels of the justice system. As the late Cathy Merrick said when speaking about William Ahmo's case, “This justice system was not meant for us.” I want to honour the late Grand Chief Cathy Merrick this evening.

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Ms. Pam Damoff (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Consular Affairs), Lib.)

Sep/16/24 9:58:43 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to thank my friend and colleague for her moving words, for recognizing the individuals who have been killed and for bringing their voice to Parliament. At the beginning of her speech, she mentioned the role that the media plays in normalizing violence. I wonder if she could speak a little more about how that impacts what is happening. Also, does she see any role for government to play in the role the media has in normalizing that violence?

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Sep/16/24 9:59:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of levels to that. One is that it is so normalized, it does not even get covered. The fact is that six indigenous people, within a span of a couple of weeks, lost their lives at the hands of our so-called justice system and it barely made the news. What is making it worse is the extremist, misinformation, alt-right media outlets that perpetuate racism against indigenous people, including with things like residential school denialism. How we get our media and where our media comes from are just as important as what is covered, and the government needs to do a lot more to deal with the growing misinformation and to become a champion of justice. These are constitutional issues that we are talking about. The violation of human rights is so normalized in this country that it does not even make the news.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 10:00:38 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I always admire my friend and colleague, the member for Winnipeg Centre, for her vision and great advocacy in ensuring that indigenous peoples' human rights are being upheld, something we do not get to see very often, which we all know is part of the reason we are having this emergency debate. One of the things that I keep wondering about is what accountability looks like for these people, for the families of these souls we have lost. What will accountability look like for the families of the people the member named in her statement?

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Ms. Leah Gazan

Sep/16/24 10:01:23 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I certainly cannot answer what justice will look like for the families and how they will get the justice and closure they need. What I can say is that we have had several major reports, including the aboriginal justice inquiry, the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls and the final report of the TRC. I do not think we lack responses. We have the responses. I hear the government and the opposition say that we need indigenous people to lead the way. We have led the way. We need governments to respond to calls to action and calls for justice. We need a response if we want to move forward to deal with systemic racism in this country.

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Mrs. Laila Goodridge (Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, CPC)

Sep/16/24 10:02:19 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, to follow up on what my hon. colleague said, it is very clear what MMIWG call for justice 5.4 says. It does not say to maybe at some point look at indigenous policing. It says, “immediately and dramatically transform Indigenous policing”. I am wondering whether, in her opinion, she thinks that in the nine years the Liberal government has been in power it has done enough to do that.

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