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Context: House Hansard - 336 - Sep/16/24

Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 11:24:15 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to pick up on the issue of our Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs, which has before it a proposal to do a study on indigenous policing and to look at studying other issues. The chamber is actually recognizing how important the issue is with what has taken place. National Chief Cindy Woodhouse, who has been a very strong advocate for indigenous policing, wants to see more movement in that area. Would the member not agree that this is a study that is in fact important to see take place, even if there have been other studies before it, recognizing now that we have a higher sense of urgency due to the fact that we are having this emergency debate and that there have been changes within the community itself?

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Mr. Frank Caputo

Sep/16/24 11:25:24 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the reality is that the urgency that brings us to this debate, the reason we are here, is not simply because we should do one study or we should do this. We should be acting with urgency in all facets of this debate, not just with respect to one study. People have talked about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission recommendations and the recommendations from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. Obviously, six people have passed away and we are here to discuss it. However, we are not only here to discuss it; we are here to make it a priority. To my colleague saying that we need to make this one thing a priority, I would respectfully disagree, because we have to make all aspects of it a priority.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 11:26:21 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I have been listening to the debate and the questioning by the Liberals and I find it interesting that they are wanting to delay more action by asking questions about whether the Standing Committee on Indigenous and Northern Affairs should study indigenous policing. That, to me, is a very strong indication that this is just part of the systemic racism that indigenous peoples will continue to experience, because that system, that institution, is refusing to act. I wonder if the member can respond to the Liberals trying to delay action by proposing more studies. What do we really need to do to make sure that we are saving indigenous peoples' lives?

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Mr. Frank Caputo

Sep/16/24 11:27:22 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for raising this issue. I have been here for much of the debate, but I have not been here for all of it, so I do not know all of the questions that have been asked. What I hear in my colleague's question is, essentially, what we should be doing and that the Liberals want to delay things. What we should be doing is listening to the people on the ground. Whether it be people experiencing life in one way or another, clearly there is a problem. We have talked at length tonight about overrepresentation in federal penitentiaries, something that I saw first-hand. We have also talked about the disproportionate number of victims that indigenous groups in Canada make up. If I had to recommend one thing to do, it would be to humble ourselves and resolve to solve this issue along non-partisan lines. I get that committees sometimes meet behind closed doors in order to prioritize, but sometimes we do have to put the good of the nation ahead of the good of the party.

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Mr. Mike Morrice (Kitchener Centre, GP)

Sep/16/24 11:28:41 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member for Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo spoke about moving to action, about young people and listening to folks on the ground. That is what the TRC was all about. It is what the member for Nunavut has called for us to focus on. Call to action 66 specifically calls on the federal government “to establish multi-year funding for community-based youth organizations to deliver programs on reconciliation”. Is the member supportive of call to action 66 and what is he doing to make it happen?

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Mr. Frank Caputo

Sep/16/24 11:29:11 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, where I come from, there was, I would say, a turning point when it comes to reconciliation, and that was the finding of the 215, known as Le Estcwicwéy. In other words, “the missing” was the term, and the missing does not just define the 215. What it defines, and how it was used through oral history, is to say there were children who went to residential schools and never came back. In response to the member's question, I am supporting Tk̓emlúps te Secwépemc and all of the other bands, and there are seven or eight in my riding, to the best of my ability. They might be bands like High Bar that have a very small group of people. I try to make myself as accessible as possible to listen and advocate in any way I can, because that is what I can do as a member of Parliament responsive to their needs, and it is for them to tell me what their needs are.

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Mr. Brendan Hanley (Yukon, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 11:30:23 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Skeena—Bulkley Valley today. First, I would like to also thank my northern colleague, the member for Nunavut, for raising this tragic and pressing issue, where indigenous people in Canada continue to experience disproportionate levels of violence and loss. Since late August, six indigenous people have tragically lost their lives in encounters with police across Canada. I want to send my condolences to the families of those who died. Unfortunately, this is not new. In fact, an indigenous person in Canada is 10 times more likely than a non-indigenous person to be killed by police. Indigenous people face systemic racism and inequitable outcomes in the criminal justice system, particularly with law enforcement. In Canada, the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous peoples is undergoing a significant transition, which requires us all to recognize the past and address the harm done in order to work towards a fairer future. Achieving reconciliation calls for a thorough reassessment of various elements of Canada's connection with indigenous communities, such as governance, human rights, culture and law enforcement. We know that colonialism and failed policies are what got us to this place, and we will continue to work with first nations, Inuit, and Métis partners towards a fairer, more just future for everyone in this country. A fair and effective criminal justice system is critical to ensuring that Canadians feel safe in their communities and have confidence in their justice system. I know that the introduction of federal legislation recognizing first nations police services as essential services is an important step toward reconciliation. Over the last couple of years, we have collaborated extensively toward future legislation with first nations partners, as well as provinces and territories. Our objective is to ensure these services are well positioned to continue meeting policing standards and to respond to community priorities. Three federal budgets, of 2018, 2021 and 2024, outline major investments in first nations and Inuit policing, but we know there is more to do, both in terms of funding and also in terms of the way the program functions. The RCMP recognizes its historical role in colonization. As the RCMP moves toward reconciliation, this work must be done in partnership with first nation and Inuit communities, including under the first nation and Inuit policing program. The RCMP is engaging with national, regional, and local first nation, Inuit, and Métis leaders to formalize working relationships that will strengthen how they collaborate with indigenous partners and organizations. The RCMP has a first nation, Inuit, and Métis recruiting strategy, with the goal of increasing the number of indigenous applicants and cadets entering the cadet training program. As well, the RCMP is establishing a first nation, Inuit, and Métis recruitment unit and working on the launch of indigenous-language application materials. Beyond our work on policing, we have introduced legislation to provide redress for those who faced unfair treatment by the RCMP or CBSA. Bill C-20 is an urgent step towards reconciliation with indigenous peoples with the potential to rebuild trust between indigenous communities and law enforcement. Many have experienced trauma at the hands of the RCMP or CBSA from inappropriate comments to excessive force and misconduct. While progress has been made, significant challenges remain. Bill C-20 will help bridge that gap by holding law enforcement accountable through an independent review body, giving indigenous peoples and others a platform to address systemic issues. This bill, if adopted, would help rebuild much-needed trust between law enforcement and indigenous communities, and contribute to a renewed nation-to-nation relationship built on rights, respect and partnership. These are some of the steps that are perhaps more specific to public safety and the RCMP, but I believe personally there is more that we can do. What are some of the solutions that we consider over and above what we are already doing? One example already mentioned in this debate is worth explaining in more detail. Chief Doris Bill was chief of the Kwanlin Dun First Nation. Doris Bill is a person that many in this chamber know well, and she was chief between 2014 and 2023. I am pleased that my colleague, the parliamentary secretary for foreign affairs, already mentioned her during this debate, but this community safety officer program started as a pilot program under the leadership of Chief Doris Bill. It was really to try to bring a community-based, first nation-led solution to many of the problems of crime and disorder that the first nation was experiencing. A short name for this program might be called social policing, a program designed to address in a very pragmatic way the root causes of the crime, public disorder, neglect and domestic violence that was occurring at levels that were becoming intolerable for the Kwanlin Dun community. Community safety officer programs will vary according to the community needs, based on an extensive community survey and assessment, and this was designed and developed by Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in citizen and former police officer, Gina Nagano, founder of the House of Wolf & Associates. Community safety officers are people from the community, trained over several weeks in the appropriate skills to be able to intervene in potentially risky situations and conflicts. They may be visiting elders or households at risk. They are generally available and approachable to support the day-to-day safety of community citizens. As they actively patrol communities, they provide simple support and intervention as needed, perhaps with citizens experiencing crisis and supporting investigations or enforcement, but they can also help link to other partners and agencies as appropriate. It could be a youth in crisis, someone feeling threatened, a lonely elder or a host of other situations that, when unaddressed, could lead to violence, disorder or tragedy. The CS officers are able to contact and liaise with RCMP, bylaw, conservation officers and others, and they have helped the RCMP in the Yukon, who provide policing services, to build closer and more constructive relationships themselves with Yukon communities. Community safety officers, in short, help to build and maintain trust and a positive relationship with citizens and external partners. Although it started with Kwanlin Dün First Nation, the CSO program has now been adopted in several communities in the Yukon, communities such as Teslin in southern Yukon, where the so-called “deadly aunties” help to bring peace and cohesion to the community. The CSO program is an example to be emulated and further supported by all levels of government. All of Canada can learn from them and bring similar programs, particularly to indigenous communities, and I invite any interested members or citizens to reach out to me if they would like to learn more. I could go on. I think there are other examples of accomplishments in the Yukon that have helped to prevent or address violence and harms experienced by indigenous peoples. Modern treaties and self-government is one area that cannot be ignored. Of the 14 Yukon first nations, 11 are self-governing, meaning that these governments have the ability and mechanisms to determine their own needs and priorities and to negotiate in good faith with both territorial and federal governments. With self-government comes the ability to negotiate elements such as administration of justice agreements, a process that seems all too slow to build but at least enables indigenous-led, culturally safe and trauma-informed justice supports for indigenous persons. I think it is also worth noting the Yukon's missing and murdered indigenous women and girls strategy, developed in 2020 with a full implementation plan released last year. I believe it is incumbent on each jurisdiction to follow the Yukon's lead on developing and implementing similar strategies that, in the words of the Yukon strategy, are “committed to a decolonized approach”, “grounded in culture and community”, “to taking action to end violence and upholding dignity and justice for Yukon's MMIWG2S+”. I would like to end there, but there are solutions already in play in the country that deserve attention and support and that deserve to be shared widely. Perhaps it is small consolation for the families of those who have so tragically died, but let these conversations help us to work together with indigenous citizens and partners in the pursuit of further solutions. Finally, I would like again to thank the member for Nunavut for her work and for convening this debate tonight.

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Ms. Lori Idlout (Nunavut, NDP)

Sep/16/24 11:39:10 p.m.
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Uqaqtittiji, I always appreciate what the member has to share as a fellow northerner. I think we have common experiences representing people who mostly live in rural and remote communities. As I have been saying tonight, this issue to me is not just about investing more in first nations. There needs to be more than that. I think part of the problem with each successive government that we have seen is that they have made a lot of promises. Both Conservatives and Liberals have made so many promises to indigenous peoples, and so many promises have been broken. I wonder if the member can share with us a Liberal promise that was made in 2020 by the Prime Minister to introduce a first nations policing law. We have not seen it yet. We are now in 2024. I wonder if the member can share with us when this party plans to finally introduce a first nations policing law so that indigenous peoples can do their own job to protect themselves.

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Mr. Brendan Hanley

Sep/16/24 11:40:37 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I know this is an area to which the Prime Minister and our government are fully committed. Clearly, it is a process that takes a long time to accomplish. Perhaps, when we see the need, it is too long in the implementation. I know it is something that our minister and our parliamentary secretary, who spoke earlier, are very committed to. Supporting community-based programs that play an intermediate role of liaison and what I call social policing is also critical as we look for the full cadre of needs in community safety and indigenous policing.

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Mr. Mike Morrice (Kitchener Centre, GP)

Sep/16/24 11:41:38 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I want to follow up on that question, recognizing that the member for Yukon has such a track record here of working with others in the best interest of his community and those he is looking to serve. To follow up on the question from the member for Nunavut from earlier, could he talk about what other MPs can do to support efforts to move more quickly toward the implementation of indigenous policing, in the way that the member for Nunavut referred to?

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Mr. Brendan Hanley

Sep/16/24 11:42:14 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the collegiality shown by my colleague from Kitchener Centre. I would just, without repeating my previous answer, stress that it is important for us all to reflect on the need for progress in this area, including sharing best practices and innovations that come from first nation, Inuit and Métis communities and nations themselves.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 11:42:50 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, only because it has come up on a few occasions, I think it is important to recognize that, when we talk about the legislation the member has just been asked about, the government is actually working in collaboration with indigenous communities to develop it. This often means that it requires additional time. I would suggest that it is time well spent because it is a genuine attempt, in working in collaboration with indigenous people, to make sure that we have it right. Could he talk about just how important it is, whether it is legislation in progress or other initiatives, that we look at and support indigenous policy ideas and leadership coming from that?

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Mr. Brendan Hanley

Sep/16/24 11:43:52 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I think the parliamentary secretary has laid out the need for an ongoing commitment that involves exactly that. It is more than just a collaboration; it is truly a partnership, and that takes time. I think that we recognize the urgency, but we also recognize the need to do things right. As long as the conversation keeps going, as long as the commitment is there and we can retain the trust and the partnership, we will get to those goals that we so sorely need to reach.

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Mr. Taylor Bachrach (Skeena—Bulkley Valley, NDP)

Sep/16/24 11:44:47 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I know the hour is late. It is almost midnight here in Ottawa, but I cannot think of a more important conversation for us to be having as a country than this one right now. I want to start by thanking my colleagues, the member for Nunavut, the member for Winnipeg Centre and the member for Timmins—James Bay, whose interventions tonight have really done justice to a difficult and important topic. This is an issue that touches many in northern B.C., the region that I am so honoured to represent. Because of the topic of tonight's debate, I want to start, as others have, by expressing my deep condolences to the families of the six indigenous people, five men and one woman, who lost their lives at the hands of police in just 11 days this month. I also want to use my time tonight to give voice to the anger, pain, dismay and frustration felt by the family members of Dale Culver. Dale was a 35-year-old Gitxsan and Wet'suwet'en man who lived in Prince George but had family roots throughout the northwest. On the evening of July 18, 2017, the police in Prince George received a call from someone about a suspect, a Caucasian male wearing dark clothes, who was looking into parked vehicles. They said that he might have a weapon and that he might have a partner working with him. The police attended the scene and saw Dale Carver, a clearly indigenous man, on a riding his BMX bike. They called at him to stop, and when he did not, they chased after him, grabbed him by his backpack and pulled him off his bike onto the ground. What happened after that can be read in the B.C. Prosecution Service's report, but the details are horrifying given the violence that was inflicted upon this young man. The report talks about the officer kicking and punching him and spraying him in the face with pepper spray. The officer called for reinforcements, and when those reinforcements showed up, they did the same. They punched him in the head. They kicked him many times. They pepper sprayed their gloves and then put them over his mouth. Twenty-nine minutes after the altercation, Dale was dead. There were bystanders filming the incident on their cellphones. One of the officers demanded that the bystanders delete the videos from their phones and tried to grab one of the phones out of a bystander's hands. Those bystanders did so because they were threatened by this officer, so there was very little evidence when this case went to court. At one point when he was on the ground, I will add, Dale cried out, “I can't breathe. I can't breathe.” Two of the officers were charged with manslaughter, something very rare, and it did go to court. The first autopsy and pathology report found that blunt trauma to the head was a likely contributing factor in Dale's death, and through a series of events after that, the prosecutors ended up commissioning a second opinion on the pathology report, which came back with a different conclusion. In the end, the charges against the two officers were stayed. The third officer, the one who grabbed at a cellphone and demanded that bystanders delete the videos, was just recently convicted of obstruction of justice. We have heard a huge outcry from the families, from the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs and from the regional chief of the Assembly of First Nations, Terry Teegee, about the process, about the struggle that indigenous people have in obtaining justice and about the shortcomings of the independent oversight bodies that exist. They are calling for change, and their calls for change relate directly to what is being discussed tonight. Dale's death, of course, is part of a pattern. It is part of a larger picture. It is a picture that this place, the House, has talked about before, has debated before and has held hearings on before. It makes me think of other stories I have heard from northwest B.C. It makes me think of a remote detachment in our region that saw fit to hang a flag with the thin blue line symbol on it in the detachment. This was brought to my attention out of concern for what it represented; it is a symbol that people in the House will know, and as the Calgary Police Commission has described, as having a “contentious history with roots in division, colonialism and racism”. It makes me think of another story from the same community, where a young constable was posted. Community members found on his Facebook page a photo of him wearing an Afro wig, with a raised fist and the caption “Black and proud”. He is a Caucasian officer. Another post showed him in colonial dress in front of a Union Jack, with the caption “Now, what's to be done with these pesky natives stirring up trouble in the colonies?” It makes me think of my colleague's comment earlier about the importance of better screening in the recruitment and hiring of RCMP officers. Of course, these stories make me think of a recent audio recording played in a Smithers courtroom. The recording was made after arrests on November 19, 2021. This of course involved land defenders on a road in a remote part of northern B.C. The recording is of several RCMP officers heard laughing about police violence, mocking arrestees and making derogatory comments about symbols worn by two indigenous women to honour and remember murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. They said, “Do they have [effing] face paint on too? They're not orcs?” Orcs, of course, are fictional monsters from The Lord of the Rings. These are peace officers who were recorded saying this about indigenous people. Perhaps most disturbing was a clip that caught an officer describing an indigenous arrestee as “that big [effing] ogre-looking dude, he's actually...autistic.” Then he goes on to describe one of the officers grabbing this individual by the testicles and twisting. These are the stories that are part of this picture. I could get into the parliamentary report on systemic racism in policing in Canada. It has been mentioned already this evening. I think everyone in the House is aware that this is a problem. I heard my Conservative colleagues calling it something else, but with the same effect: that these are systemic biases. They are entrenched biases that affect society and the ability of people to obtain the justice they so rightly deserve. We know these systems of discrimination affect not only indigenous people but also others, and we cannot act urgently enough to see the changes that are needed. That is what I want to say. I will add this final point, which is that the media built up today, the first day back in Parliament, as a day of division, rancour and expected conflict in the House. What I have heard tonight is quite the opposite. I think there is the basis here for something that could be very important, and I call urgently on my colleagues for us to take this opportunity to ensure that the steps are taken. We need to do better. We need to do better by indigenous people and we need to do better by police officers. Systemic biases do not help the police do their jobs better. They do not help women in the police forces do their jobs better. With that, I will end by again thanking you, Mr. Speaker, for agreeing to this debate and thanking members for their contributions tonight. Let us not let this go without action.

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Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Parliamentary Secretary to the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Sep/16/24 11:55:05 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, to reinforce something that was indicated earlier today in regards to the RCMP and a number of actions, one of those actions was the first-ever report on how the RCMP needs to work on reconciliation and take specific actions to make a difference in building a healthier, stronger relationship. It is important, as legislators, that we set a very high bar for our national law enforcement agency, and the expectations that they are moving forward on the issue, and working with and supporting, in particular, indigenous police services. Would the member not agree that the expectations and the bar do need to be very high for our national policing agency? Part of that is making sure that there is a higher sense of accountability at that level.

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Mr. Taylor Bachrach

Sep/16/24 11:56:18 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Winnipeg North for the question, and of course I do. What I was trying to articulate at the end of my speech was the fact that not only does the current scenario and culture not serve indigenous people in this country, as the statistics clearly show, but it actually does not serve the police. For new police officers coming into the RCMP or coming into a municipal police service, those cultural elements do not help them do their job better. We need to see reforms to policing in Canada. The thing that is so frustrating is that those reforms have been articulated in detail, in report after report, and we have not seen action from the government. I am going to read one recommendation: That the Royal Canadian Mounted Police be transitioned away from a para-military force into a police service model with civilian oversight through a national oversight board with a legislated mandate to make this transition This has not happened. In fact, reading through the report, which is from 2020, so few of these changes are under way. I share the dismay of others that the progress under the government has been so painfully slow.

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Mr. Frank Caputo (Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, CPC)

Sep/16/24 11:57:41 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to rise on behalf of the people of Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, although today is not a day which we celebrate, given the sensitive topic that we are dealing with. I have two questions, and my colleague can answer both, or perhaps just one. He was just speaking about policing and moving away from the paramilitary style of the RCMP and its long history. There are a number of indigenous police officers. Is that something that he believes, that we should be consulting with those officers, or should that review come from outside? Second, the member spoke in a lot of broad strokes with some specific examples, as did I in my speech. If he could do one thing moving forward tomorrow, what would it be?

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Mr. Taylor Bachrach

Sep/16/24 11:58:36 p.m.
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Mr. Speaker, the member's question was whether current indigenous police officers be consulted in the transformation of the national police force. I see no reason why that would not take place. That would be a rational aspect of such a transition. However, there is ample evidence, and we only have to read the report from the standing committee to see all of the evidence lined up for transitioning to a civilian police force and ensuring that officers are getting the training and being given the tools to deal with the situations they are being asked to deal with. We are actually doing them no favours by putting them into situations where they have no training in dealing with critical mental health crises, where they are put into situations that they are ill-equipped to deal with. This idea of transitioning the model of the force towards a civilian model with a national oversight board would create much needed accountability. Maybe we will start to see some changes. Now to the member's question about what one thing would I do tomorrow if I had the ability to enact any of these changes. That is tough because the most important single thing could be to read through all these recommendations as the government, pick one and implement it as quickly as possible.

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The Deputy Speaker

Sep/17/24 12:00:19 a.m.
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It being midnight, I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the House stands adjourned until later this day at 10 a.m., pursuant to Standing Order 24(1). (The House adjourned at 12 a.m.)

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